Is a .357mag needed? Why not a .38sp?

[Golfswithwolves]

Yes it is called a Combat Magnum. Chambered in .357 Magnum and designed for a limited number of full .357s and mostly used with Mid range Magnums and .38s.......

Mr. ddixie884- You have it right! Although I would prefer the .38 chambering to allow the use of the .38/44 loads without any problems with the "crud ring". I have had less success with the moderate loads for the .357 Magnum brass.

[gwpercle]

I seldom use full-charge .357s. If a #358429 Keith at 1000 fps won't do it I go straight to a .44 Mag. or .30-'06!

Same here ...except my "go to" is a 41 magnum (avatar) .
My everyday is an AirWeight 38 Special ... Stowed in a pocket .
With +P , standard velocity or even 148 gr. Target WC loads , I feel well armed .
The model 58 in 41 magnum is my nightstand or open carry revolver .
Gary

[CoolHandMoss]

The real question is "why not a .357?" The .38 may well be enough for your needs but what do you have to gain from sacrificing the added energy from the .357. are you trying to carry a lighter package? Is recoil a problem? Are you shooting so much that you are trying to save powder to keep costs down? Do you have a bunch of .38 brass and you are trying to talk yourself out of buying .357 brass? The numbers only get you but so far in determining if .38 is enough. Something is always better than nothing but why skimp without a good reason? Personally I prefer to load lighter .357 rounds for high volume range shooting than to load .38. I load some .38 but I honestly don't know why.

[charlie b]

A common discussion with predictable outcome.

What will matter more is where you place the bullet. Both the .38spl and .357 will penetrate enough to do the job. Pick the right load and carry it.

Here is some helpful info. Scroll down for the .357

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

[megasupermagnum]

A common discussion with predictable outcome.

What will matter more is where you place the bullet. Both the .38spl and .357 will penetrate enough to do the job. Pick the right load and carry it.

Here is some helpful info. Scroll down for the .357

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

Do they though? Just about everything on that list of 38 special either barely penetrates to their minimum, or fails to expand and leaves a pinhole. Of course that penetration minimum is for humans, which this discussion makes no request that it has to be about self defense against humans. The 158 gr SWC-HP is about the best performing bullet in the group. Unfortunately it appears all those factory loads fail to expand from a 2" barrel. Goes to show what 50 fps will do when you are borderline. I will dare to say that unexpanded SWC at 800 fps made as big of a hole as a full wadcutter at just over 700 fps, and the SWC penetrated way farther.

The 357 magnum on the other hand, just about everything except the odd rounds like the 100 and 110 grain bullets did really well. None of them are even particularly strong rounds. The best probably the 158gr XTP. Even from a 2" barrel, there's no reason you can't deer hunt with that. 22" of penetration from a 2" snub, and huge wound channels. Then the 4" barrel penetrates even farther, and with even larger wound channels. You can't get that from any 38 special.

I fully understand the thinking of big and slow. It is a valid way to go. That doesn't make them more powerful, that is utter nonsense. A 45 acp is not more powerful than a 357 magnum, just because it has a bigger number in the name. The big and slow calibers like 45 acp, 44 special, and 45 colt are nice, easy to reload cartridges, and they produce consistent results on game. They are not, and never have been powerhouses.

45 Colt came out about 1873ish. It served it's role very well, but was not the most powerful handgun round of the time. The 357 magnum came out in 1934, and it was the most powerful handgun cartridge commercially released. If it weren't for Elmer Keith running the 44 special on redline, essentially a 44 magnum, it would have been the most powerful handgun cartridge outright. After the 357's introduction, it was quickly used to hunt every big game animal on the continent with total success.

This sums up the 357 magnum as well as I've ever seen. The quote at the bottom unfortunately applies to a gaining number to those who apparently have not used them to hunt.

When it came out it was tested against the elements by several well noted people. What follows are some of those examples.
Major Douglas Wesson

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

To those who criticized, the Major replied that they "..had not the slightest conception of what we have accomplished in ballistics.." - a statement that still applies today.

[ddixie884]

Mr. ddixie884- You have it right! Although I would prefer the .38 chambering to allow the use of the .38/44 loads without any problems with the "crud ring". I have had less success with the moderate loads for the .357 Magnum brass.

I'm afraid I have short-cutted this with a work around for my own use. I use my 15-2 and 15-3 as my compact .38-44s. I load them from 1,000 to 1,150 with 160gr swc and keep an eye on b/c gap and head space and locking bolts. I shoot a lot of 900fps+ for utility and practice and often load with more than one kind of ammo in a cylinder full. I've usually got 3 or 4 different loadings in my pick-up........

[charlie b]

Yes, the .357 is suitable for much more than self defense (which is why I carry one in the field). But, the .38spl will do for personal defense nicely.

Defensive shooting is about hitting a critical part of the anatomy. That .357 can expand all you want, but, if it is shot at something other than the CNS, then all that just means they might bleed out after you are killed.

Unfortunately there is little real evidence to show differences between different penetrations, ie, how much difference is there in a lung shot when using expanding ammo vs non-expanding on a person. Why? People respond differently to being shot if not hit in the CNS. Some can carry on their task while others will fall down, even if shot in the leg with a .22lr. If you want to carry it to the extreme, read some Medal of Honor citations.

I can also say that even when hit with a rifle that shreds the lungs, a large animal (deer) can still run a good distance. Even a heart shot is not immediately incapacitating. So, yes, I can shoot large game with a .357, but, they may still be able to hurt me unless I hit them in the right place.

[FergusonTO35]

In my mind, the .357 is at it's best in a carbine such as the Marlin 1894. This cartridge really punches above it's weight class when you give it more barrel and an appropriate boolit and powder. All my centerfire wheelguns are .38's, as I am honest in admitting I can't shoot a .357 well from a handgun. With the .38 I can shoot with good accuracy and quick follow up shots.

[smkummer]

My truck gun is a finish challenged Colt trooper MKIII 4” .357. Loaded with 357. If someone where to hide behind a car door or the rear part of a car and believe they had cover, they would learn the hard way that isn’t cover if the opponent has a .357.

[Forrest r]

I'm using a 170gr bullet in my snubnosed sd/ccw 357. It's only going 1200fps+, if I could get that bullet to go 1300fps+ in that revolver I would.

Why bring 2 beers to the party when you have a 6-pack.

[atr]

OK, +P is a somewhat more powerful round. But how much more powerful?
I have heard that +P means 10% more powerful than the maximum listed loading. Can anyone clarify just how much more powerful +P is?
thanks
atr

[Tim357]

OK, +P is a somewhat more powerful round. But how much more powerful?
I have heard that +P means 10% more powerful than the maximum listed loading. Can anyone clarify just how much more powerful +P is?
thanks
atr

SAAMI max specs are 35K psi for .357, and 20K for .38Spl+P, and 17K psi for std .38 Spl. 38/44 loads aren't listed by SAAMI, so you'd be on your own. Generally from what I've found is that 38/44 are around 25K.

[Texas by God]

I know I'm weird, but I really like the .38 Special over the .357magnum. I've owned a bunch of both, even killed a deer with a .357 revolver- but I've killed a big feral sow with a .38 Special as well. For the three uses that the OP laid out; the .38 will do just fine.
The .41 Remington is the only magnum handgun round that I like.
I told you about the weird part, right?

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[robertbank]

I feel way more confident with a max load of 296 and a 125 grain JHP in my model 19, 28 or 686. The 38 special is great for target shooting and lead 158 grain cast bullets allow me to hold at 6:00 while full power .357's land lower at point of sight. For real world handgun use the .357 is my go to revolver...

Interesting. I just loaded some 125 JHP using 17.5gr of 2400. Out of my 4.2" GP-100 they were running 1465fps on average. You would not want to shoot them all day long but six with a reload if needed would not be unreasonable. I know I would not want to be in front of them.

Take Care

Bob

[megasupermagnum]

I know I'm weird, but I really like the .38 Special over the .357magnum. I've owned a bunch of both, even killed a deer with a .357 revolver- but I've killed a big feral sow with a .38 Special as well. For the three uses that the OP laid out; the .38 will do just fine.
The .41 Remington is the only magnum handgun round that I like.
I told you about the weird part, right?

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

It's only weird if you haven't owned them all. 327 federal magnum, 357 remington magnum, 41 remington magnum, 44 remington magnum. I suppose you could add 480 Ruger to the spectrum too, which I don't have yet. I like specials, and now and again the super hotrods like the 454 Casull are fun, but the strong magnums are my sweet spot. I like every one of them.

[Hodagtrapper]

The .38 special cartridge is fine for self defense but for hunting the .357 is a better choice IMO. Depending on the day of the week I may have a 10mm or .45 LC holstered too.

Chris

[atr]

and 20K for .38Spl+P, and 17K psi for std .38 Spl.

thanks Tim357......that is a 17.65% increase over standard load
atr

[dverna]

I know I'm weird, but I really like the .38 Special over the .357magnum. I've owned a bunch of both, even killed a deer with a .357 revolver- but I've killed a big feral sow with a .38 Special as well. For the three uses that the OP laid out; the .38 will do just fine.
The .41 Remington is the only magnum handgun round that I like.
I told you about the weird part, right?

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

I guess I am weird too. The .357 is just a bit much for me out of pistol if I want to shoot over 100 rounds at a time.

[ddixie884]

Remember too, that +P is plus pressure. Different powders give different FPS for the same pressure. Also Ammo companies sell you +P ammo that gives you less than 18,000 pounds of pressure, not 19,800psi. If it gives anything over 17,000psi it is +P.
Rumor has it that the 147gr +P+ Federals were only marginally over +P. Boutique loaders load a lot closer to max pressure.

Don't get me wrong, I like everything sbout a .357 Magnum except the High pitched crack and muzzle blast. That is why I had my first .41spl built........

[usedtobeyoung]

I like the versatility possible out if 357 mag. And 38 special.