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Thread: Learned something new. Bitcoin

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Handloader109's Avatar
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    Learned something new. Bitcoin

    Not a bitcoin fan, rather deal with money that I can touch when I need or want to and isn't really a speculative gamble. But I never knew or thought about the electric power consumption necessary to support bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

    Terrawatts.... Not watts, or kilowatts, or even megawatts, but terrawatts. More electricity than several countries in the world use..... It ain't a green currency at all.

    BBC News - Bitcoin consumes 'more electricity than Argentina'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56012952

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy Joe504's Avatar
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    Yeah, trust none of that.
    How much power does the banking industry use to maintain its operations?
    How much power and fuel is used to make and transport currency?

    This is an attack on crypto, for whatever reason, take your pick.

    Dont trust the media just because they suddenly support your world view.

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I have several question about these so called COINS, what ever they choose to call them. # 1, who guarantees their value? #2 can you change it into currency, either part or all. #3, Who dreamed up these coins. #4, Is our government in any way involved? # 4, And last, are they just another scam.
    A GUN THAT'S COCKED AND UNLOADED AIN'T GOOD FOR NUTHIN'........... ROOSTER COGBURN

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe504 View Post
    Yeah, trust none of that.
    How much power does the banking industry use to maintain its operations?
    How much power and fuel is used to make and transport currency?

    This is an attack on crypto, for whatever reason, take your pick.

    Dont trust the media just because they suddenly support your world view.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    I have not studied this by any measure, but I have a uncle that was a bitcoin miner and he could NOT get the heat the computers generated out of his house. They are burning energy for what? That heat is all energy being consumed.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    There is good reason that the big miners are located in locations with cheap power.

    The math will eventually work itself out. With the price of bitcoin growing the miners are motivated to spend $30,000 or more to mine a coin. When is stabilizes, at whatever level, or drops sharply the miners will either stop or more likely shift to a new “currency” and crypto pushers will hype something new.

    I’m not anti crypto, I think that the underlying tech has interesting potential, but today it’s a terrible currency. It’s a poor store of value and it is not widely used for commerce. I expect that Bitcoin will fade, but no idea when.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Bit coin is no different than assigning value to paper.

    A few years back when my son and I rode from Banff Ab. to Helena Mt., we stopped by Lewis and Clark brewing. I'll strike up a conversation with anyone, so while we were at their tap room and my son was ordering us a pizza, I went over and started to talking to 2 guys in the hallway. One was the head brewer and the other the shipping manager. Since I work on a 1099 as a consultant for our local oldest brewery we got talking keg cleaners and other automation equipment and got a complete behind the scenes tour. One room where they took us used to be a server room where the owner had racks of servers mining bitcoins. He ended up moving them and expanding into a larger facility that produced more revenue than the brewery and it was a BIG craft brewery.

    A lot of money in virtual wealth. Myself, I'll take livestock and self sufficiency in case thing go to hell in a handbasket. Which I believe will happen sooner rather than later.
    “Coincidence is God’s way of remaining anonymous.”

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    I'm in software, so I know a bit about this. To give you just a little bit of reason why you should trust my word, my job for the past several decades has been to evaluate new technologies as they come to exist, and tell non-technical people (C-level executives) why they want nothing to do with them. I don't work for a big company making big software, I work for a small company that consults for big companies to help them make technology decisions. My job is to understand these technologies, and get to the bottom of the real costs and benefits of them.

    Bitcoin is weird. It is a revolution, but not for the reasons most people (and all the media) thinks. It actually involves two technologies; cryptocurrency and blockchain.

    So everybody thinks they know what banks do, but most people are wrong. People who never spent any time thinking about it say "I pay them a fee to hold my money," but that's not right. People who have thought about it more say "What they really do is loan money to make interest, and all the people depositing money is just their way of getting money to lend." But that also not right. They do both of those things, but those are just profitable side jobs. The main job of a bank is to maintain a ledger.

    Banks don't sell financial products, they sell trust. Trust in their ledger. The ledger says who has how much money and when. They employ thousands of people and billions in technology to audit and maintain that ledger. But at the end of the day, you're trusting the ledger. When I log into the bank, the number in my account is what I expect it to be because their ledger is trustworthy.

    Blockchain is a ledger. But it's a ledger that cannot be cheated. You can't insert fake transactions to hide shady deals, or push money around. Without getting into the details, every transaction both depends on and contains information about every other transaction, for all of time. So any attempt to fake an entry wouldn't work, because of hard math. They're doing crazy things with very large numbers and some really unintuitive math, which makes it literally impossible to fake. So it's a perfectly trustworthy ledger. And it requires zero people, and especially zero banks, to maintain. Don't think of Blockchain of living on a computer some where, blockchain lives in the same place as the number 4. It *is*, just as assuredly as 2+2=4. In fact, exactly like 2+2=4. Transaction A happened and then transaction B happened, and you can trust that implicitly because if it didn't, 2+2 would equal 5. You can look at any entry in the ledger and verify both it's authenticity, as well as he authenticity of any other entry, from any point in time. An all entries are available to the public all the time. So no one can cheat.

    So that's blockchain. It could revolutionize banking. But obviously the banks don't like anyone to be able to magically create a perfectly trustworthy ledger, because they just spent decades or centuries building trust in their ledgers. But they're not directly opposed to it, because it also works for them.

    Then there's cryptocurrency. It's similar in that first, there exists one coin, which is basically a very, very large, and completely unique number. From that one, you can create more, but it's expensive. For the longest time, it cost a whole lot more to create one than it was worth. This goes back to that complex math. To make another coin, you have to do computations so complex, that you see it in your electricity bill. That's a lot of processing, for sure. So what they did was tie the creation of new coins to the processing of transactions in the ledger. You can't create Bitcoin without recording a transaction.

    So what Bitcoin "miners" actually do is process transactions for other people who are using Bitcoin. I don't know what the exchange is now, but in simple terms it looks like this. I want to send you $300 in Bitcoin, for which there is a small processing fee. I send that transaction off to be processed, and an unknown 3rd party, who can't read it and has no idea who it's for, starts processing the transaction. Their computer does tons of complex math, using your new transaction and the previous one on the ledger as variables in that math, and when they're done, two things happen. First, our transaction becomes part of the permanent ledger, and second, they get a little Bitcoin, from that processing fee, and another transaction showing the creation of that Bitcoin becomes part of that ledger.

    The idea, from the beginning, is that a currency that didn't cost you anything doesn't hold any intrinsic value. But if it cost you on your electric bill, now it has at least some kind of intrinsic value. At least as much as it cost you to create it. So Bitcoin aren't just fictional currency with not cost or value, being played with by investors. It actually does have an intrinsic cost and value, by nature if how it is "printed." Just like USD, bitcoin can be worth "more than the paper it's printed on," even if it's only "printed" in ones and zeros.

    Now, whether it's worth it for you or I to mess around with them is outside of my area of expertise. My expertise is in telling companies whether they should be messing around with it, and the answer is almost always "no." I don't personally have any Bitcoin, and I don't generally recommend my clients get into cryptocurrency or blockchain. But it does have a place, and there are good reasons, under the right circumstances, to use them.

    Hope that helps clear up at least what it is.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmattes View Post
    Don't think of Blockchain of living on a computer some where, blockchain lives in the same place as the number 4. It *is*, just as assuredly as 2+2=4. In fact, exactly like 2+2=4. Transaction A happened and then transaction B happened, and you can trust that implicitly because if it didn't, 2+2 would equal 5.
    That's racist math based in white supremacy.

    Yeah, that's a real thing now. https://farleftfacts.org/white-peopl...ath-is-racist/ and https://www.foxnews.com/us/californi...math-framework and https://www.powerlineblog.com/archiv...-is-racist.php

    Apparently thinking there's only one right answer to a math problem discriminates against minorities, who knew????

    The second link could possibly make ya physically ill when ya read it.

    Bitcoin is a scam IMHO. You can't carry it around, you can't see it, you can't hold it, you're supposed to just believe it's there.
    NRA Benefactor.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt Fingers View Post

    Apparently thinking there's only one right answer to a math problem discriminates against minorities, who knew????
    Texas just passed legislation making it illegal to include that, or any of Critical Race Theory, in the curriculum. No teacher can be made to reach that nonsense. Thank God.

    Bitcoin is a scam IMHO. You can't carry it around, you can't see it, you can't hold it, you're supposed to just believe it's there.
    When a bank transfers a million dollars of equity from one holding account to another, you can't see or hold that either. The majority of the money on earth is entirely digital these days already.

    Bitcoin makes sense for *institutions*. It is not something everyday people need to bother with. Although I have to admit, I wish I had bought $100 worth when it was like $0.30 each, since they're now over $40,000 each. That's... quite a return on investment.


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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    The intrinsic value of bitcoin is that transactions are untraceable......this is of great value to some ,and fluctuations in value for the instant the transfer takes is of no consequence..........and as you might imagine ,banks are developing their own cryptocurrency to eventually replace the SWIFT system they use now.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Well, they're all traceable to an account. It's just that accounts aren't traceable to a person. Every account transaction is traceable all the way back to the first. There's just no way to know who owns each of those accounts unless the owner makes it known.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy Iron369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe504 View Post
    Yeah, trust none of that.
    How much power does the banking industry use to maintain its operations?
    How much power and fuel is used to make and transport currency?

    This is an attack on crypto, for whatever reason, take your pick.

    Dont trust the media just because they suddenly support your world view.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
    What do you mean “...for whatever reason .”? The reason is obvious. Money. As long as fiat currency controlled by the federal reserve, and to a lesser extent, huge banking companies, they ultimately have control over how you can move YOUR wealth. The media is a manipulation tool; there’s no integrity in media or finance.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy Iron369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOPHER SLAYER View Post
    I have several question about these so called COINS, what ever they choose to call them. # 1, who guarantees their value? #2 can you change it into currency, either part or all. #3, Who dreamed up these coins. #4, Is our government in any way involved? # 4, And last, are they just another scam.
    There are many different types of coins and the first step in investing in crypto is to determine your reason.
    1) No one. That’s the reason for such volatility in a developing world economy.
    2) any coin can be made back into fiat currency or (as a much better option in my opinion) transferred to a stable coin
    3) The project engineers decide on the coin produced
    4) absolutely no scam. It will be the way all business is conducted in the future. It’s faster and cheaper for the consumer. How long this process takes will depend on when the federal reserve realizes it’s losing it’s control and pushes Congress to regulate it. Just like gun rights, they will try to regulate it out of existence, but inflation being created now will cause 1 of 2 things to happen; our economy will be allowed to collapse like Venezuela’s or the people will be able to continue thriving economically because our currency is not controlled by the feds. It will be the ultimate factor between the have and the have nots.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy Iron369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plate plinker View Post
    I have not studied this by any measure, but I have a uncle that was a bitcoin miner and he could NOT get the heat the computers generated out of his house. They are burning energy for what? That heat is all energy being consumed.
    Everyone constantly mentions the energy consumed mining Bitcoin. There are FAR more wasteful institutions than mining operations. Like Vegas. Like Christmas lights. Soon like electric vehicles. I’m not saying that it’s not a problem if fossil fuels are being used to mine it, but even in China, they are building renewable power infrastructure for the mining industry.
    Oh yeah... plus 18m of the 21m Bitcoin that can ever exist have already been mined. As computers become faster and more efficient, the power necessary will be reduced to coincide with the renewable energy effort globally.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy Iron369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bakerjw View Post
    Bit coin is no different than assigning value to paper.

    .
    This, my friend, is the fundamental flaw with most people’s understanding of our economy.
    Our money is assigned a value from an institution that doesn’t have your interest in mind. If you have $100 today, it will have $80 in purchasing power next year and maybe $50 the next once the feds get done inflating the economy with “free money “. YOU HAVE NO SAY IN WHAT THEY SAY YOUR MONEY IS WORTH.
    The value of Crypto (some, not all) is based on what you are willing to pay for it. Henceforth, the fluctuation. It doesn’t have a central entity determining what your $100 can buy today, tomorrow, or any other day. It is worth what you can get for it. Ever bought a collectible that went up in value?

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy Iron369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmattes View Post
    I'm in software, so I know a bit about this. To give you just a little bit of reason why you should trust my word, my job for the past several decades has been to evaluate new technologies as they come to exist, and tell non-technical people (C-level executives) why they want nothing to do with them. I don't work for a big company making big software, I work for a small company that consults for big companies to help them make technology decisions. My job is to understand these technologies, and get to the bottom of the real costs and benefits of them.

    Bitcoin is weird. It is a revolution, but not for the reasons most people (and all the media) thinks. It actually involves two technologies; cryptocurrency and blockchain.

    So everybody thinks they know what banks do, but most people are wrong. People who never spent any time thinking about it say "I pay them a fee to hold my money," but that's not right. People who have thought about it more say "What they really do is loan money to make interest, and all the people depositing money is just their way of getting money to lend." But that also not right. They do both of those things, but those are just profitable side jobs. The main job of a bank is to maintain a ledger.

    Banks don't sell financial products, they sell trust. Trust in their ledger. The ledger says who has how much money and when. They employ thousands of people and billions in technology to audit and maintain that ledger. But at the end of the day, you're trusting the ledger. When I log into the bank, the number in my account is what I expect it to be because their ledger is trustworthy.

    Blockchain is a ledger. But it's a ledger that cannot be cheated. You can't insert fake transactions to hide shady deals, or push money around. Without getting into the details, every transaction both depends on and contains information about every other transaction, for all of time. So any attempt to fake an entry wouldn't work, because of hard math. They're doing crazy things with very large numbers and some really unintuitive math, which makes it literally impossible to fake. So it's a perfectly trustworthy ledger. And it requires zero people, and especially zero banks, to maintain. Don't think of Blockchain of living on a computer some where, blockchain lives in the same place as the number 4. It *is*, just as assuredly as 2+2=4. In fact, exactly like 2+2=4. Transaction A happened and then transaction B happened, and you can trust that implicitly because if it didn't, 2+2 would equal 5. You can look at any entry in the ledger and verify both it's authenticity, as well as he authenticity of any other entry, from any point in time. An all entries are available to the public all the time. So no one can cheat.

    So that's blockchain. It could revolutionize banking. But obviously the banks don't like anyone to be able to magically create a perfectly trustworthy ledger, because they just spent decades or centuries building trust in their ledgers. But they're not directly opposed to it, because it also works for them.

    Then there's cryptocurrency. It's similar in that first, there exists one coin, which is basically a very, very large, and completely unique number. From that one, you can create more, but it's expensive. For the longest time, it cost a whole lot more to create one than it was worth. This goes back to that complex math. To make another coin, you have to do computations so complex, that you see it in your electricity bill. That's a lot of processing, for sure. So what they did was tie the creation of new coins to the processing of transactions in the ledger. You can't create Bitcoin without recording a transaction.

    So what Bitcoin "miners" actually do is process transactions for other people who are using Bitcoin. I don't know what the exchange is now, but in simple terms it looks like this. I want to send you $300 in Bitcoin, for which there is a small processing fee. I send that transaction off to be processed, and an unknown 3rd party, who can't read it and has no idea who it's for, starts processing the transaction. Their computer does tons of complex math, using your new transaction and the previous one on the ledger as variables in that math, and when they're done, two things happen. First, our transaction becomes part of the permanent ledger, and second, they get a little Bitcoin, from that processing fee, and another transaction showing the creation of that Bitcoin becomes part of that ledger.

    The idea, from the beginning, is that a currency that didn't cost you anything doesn't hold any intrinsic value. But if it cost you on your electric bill, now it has at least some kind of intrinsic value. At least as much as it cost you to create it. So Bitcoin aren't just fictional currency with not cost or value, being played with by investors. It actually does have an intrinsic cost and value, by nature if how it is "printed." Just like USD, bitcoin can be worth "more than the paper it's printed on," even if it's only "printed" in ones and zeros.

    Now, whether it's worth it for you or I to mess around with them is outside of my area of expertise. My expertise is in telling companies whether they should be messing around with it, and the answer is almost always "no." I don't personally have any Bitcoin, and I don't generally recommend my clients get into cryptocurrency or blockchain. But it does have a place, and there are good reasons, under the right circumstances, to use them.

    Hope that helps clear up at least what it is.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
    While I differ from your opinion on encouraging people to invest in it, your explanation is very good in my opinion, of course.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy Iron369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burnt Fingers View Post
    Bitcoin is a scam IMHO. You can't carry it around, you can't see it, you can't hold it, you're supposed to just believe it's there.
    You mean like your direct deposited paycheck that you spend with your debit card, the wind, your rights, or God? Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy Iron369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmattes View Post
    Bitcoin makes sense for *institutions*. It is not something everyday people need to bother with. Although I have to admit, I wish I had bought $100 worth when it was like $0.30 each, since they're now over $40,000 each. That's... quite a return on investment.


    But you won’t buy it today at (less than) $40k when it’s projected to be $12.6m in 2030?

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy Iron369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmattes View Post
    Well, they're all traceable to an account. It's just that accounts aren't traceable to a person. Every account transaction is traceable all the way back to the first. There's just no way to know who owns each of those accounts unless the owner makes it known.

    Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
    Sort of. There’s a public key and private key. The public one allows complete transparency of the transactions made with that Bitcoin, satisfied, whatever. The private key is held by the owner of the digital property and allows it to be transferred from one private key to another.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    What happens to Bitcoin if there is an EMP attack and electronics are fried? There already are cases of Bitcoin exchanges being hacked and people "losing" their Bitcoin wallet.

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