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Thread: God, the killer

  1. #41
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    This thread about to shift to a discussion of spiritual death vs physical death or will it take another page?
    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I believe that much difference in topic warrants a new page.
    I think that a discussion on spiritual death vs physical death would be good.
    Not here, obviously, since this is the God the Killer thread.

    Why don't one of your start a new thread with that as the topic?
    In my opinion, we need more threads here to keep this forum alive instead of it becoming stagnant at times.

    1Hole, I don't recall you starting a thread in this forum,...now is your opportunity!
    1A - 2A = -1A

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    I think that a discussion on spiritual death vs physical death would be good.
    Not here, obviously, since this is the God the Killer thread.

    Why don't one of your start a new thread with that as the topic?
    In my opinion, we need more threads here to keep this forum alive instead of it becoming stagnant at times.

    1Hole, I don't recall you starting a thread in this forum,...now is your opportunity!
    I've started several threads here but I don't do it often. Guess every day is an opportunity for all of us to do so but this one is JimB's idea, let's let him open it.

    I know from reading here that the truths of temporal human life vs. spiritual life now and physically living eternally in heaven vs. physically living eternally in hell can be fuzzy so it gets badly twisted around in many good people's minds, both Christian believers as well as non-believers, so it should be interesting to discuss.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master 444ttd's Avatar
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    some excerpts from the banned gospels from the council of Nicea(AD 325). Emperor Constantine was the "editor" for the Old and New Testament of the Christian Holy Bible. i was a roman catholic, after years of reading, i am a animistic shinto-like christian.


    What many people don't know is that there is so much more to the Four Gospels than Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There was also The Gospel of Peter, The Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Mary Magdalene and other gospels that were banned from the Bible.

    In 325AD the Council of Nicea under Emperor Constantine had to decide on the layout of the Holy Christian Bible for the burgeoning new religion. What follows here is a list of the books left out of the Bible.

    The Gospel of the Birth of Mary
    The Protevangelion
    The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ
    Thomas's Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ
    The Epistles of Jesus Christ and Abgarus King of Edessa
    The Gospel of Nicodemus, Formerly Called the Acts of Pontius Pilate
    The Apostles’ Creed
    The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Laodiceans
    The Epistles of Paul the Apostle to Seneca, with Seneca's to Paul
    The Acts of Paul and Thecla
    The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
    The Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
    The General Epistle of Barnabas
    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians
    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans
    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians
    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnĉans
    The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp
    The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
    The Shepherd of Hermas
    The Second Book of Hermas, Called His Commands
    The Third Book of Hermas, Which Is Called His Similitudes
    Letters of Herod and Pilate
    The Lost Gospel According to Peter

    The Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene were banned by a man by the name of Saint Ireneaus. St Ireneaus chose four Gospels because he reasoned we only have four compass points and four winds of the earth, so we only need four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). The Gospels of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Madgalene didn't fit in with St. Ireaneus beliefs so he condemed them as heresay and declared no one was going to have them.

    The Banned Gospels of the Bible documentary is a 9 part documentary available to view here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L7cQ3BrD5U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8DK6Fe0lf4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ON87...feature=relmfu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMhJBFjJMw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYkb8esadfM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_UAx9GUpMw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvXz3N6o9ns

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhU99...feature=relmfu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhxU6...feature=relmfu
    Ad Reipublicae his Civitatum Foederatarum Americae, ego sum fortis et libero. Ego autem non exieris ad impios communistarum socialismi. Ora imagines in vestri demented mentem, quod vos mos have misericordia, quia non.

    To the Republic of these United States of America, I am strong and free. I will never surrender to godless communist socialism. Pray to images in your demented mind, that you will have mercy, because i will not.

    MOLON LABE

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    You seem to be focused on evil.
    Per the 1st post, this thread is about Bible passages that show God as a mass killer.
    Are you suggesting that God is evil?
    I am not suggesting that.
    Be careful how you approach an explanation. In no way did I say God is evil, I merely made the distinction between what is good, and what is evil. The direction of this thread had devolved to the point that it appeared to accuse God of evil, as many have attempted in times past. My posting was less a response to your initial posting, and more an address to the developing trend that seemed to suggest God to have promoted sin, which isn't going to happen!

  5. #45
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    I know when I am being ignored. So was Jeremiah.
    First I evangelize, then I apologize.
    Before you read what is not in the Gospel, please read the Gospel?
    To answer #32 Sodom= go beneath... Gomorrah= "omah"-corn
    God is neither good nor bad, God is the Great "I AM"
    We will all meet Him, one day. Then you can ask Him why.
    Thus Book of James:

    13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    "Wages of sin is death" writes Paul

    Jesus says over and over "Let those with ears to hear, hear"
    How is it that your hearts are so hardened?
    Was it a religion that did that?
    We need no empty words when America hangs by a thread
    we need to renew the covenant and stop the idolatry.
    George Washington swore an oath in his first inaugural and
    prayed in the church in the shadow of the World Trade Center.
    Isaiah 9:11 came true.
    God does not ever forget a covenant. Have we forgotten?
    You ask me if God kills.
    Yes, He does, in His own time. Not mine.
    He didn't kill me when He could have.
    Why? I'm gonna ask Him, one day.
    I had better have a good reason why He let me live.
    nunc demittis

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I've started several threads here but I don't do it often. Guess every day is an opportunity for all of us to do so but this one is JimB's idea, let's let him open it.

    I know from reading here that the truths of temporal human life vs. spiritual life now and physically living eternally in heaven vs. physically living eternally in hell can be fuzzy so it gets badly twisted around in many good people's minds, both Christian believers as well as non-believers, so it should be interesting to discuss.
    Quite certain that we’ve had this discussion here not to long ago, and I’ll be offline a lot this week, but maybe in a few weeks.

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    The list is not of "banned gospels" but a list of pseudographica (false writing). The early Church was plagued by such false writtings. Folks would write whatever kind of nonsense they wanted and falsely state the author was some noted person. It was quite a problem in the early church to maintain a central core of its teachings. This was addressed in two ways.

    1. The development of creeds which stated the core truth of the Christian faith.

    2. The development of the Canon of Scripture. In developing what scriptures were "Canonical" and which were not. There were standards (canon) which were applied. They were;

    A. Was it written by an Apostle or under the authority of an Apostle?
    B. Was it accepted as genuine by the 1st. Century church, and circulated in those churches?
    C. Was the content consistent with the undisputed four Gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke and John)

    Notes on A above: The false Gospels contained many weird and bazaar statements about Jesus. There were a number of "infancy gospels" in these false writings. One, I recall had Jesus as a child, making some doves out of mud. Along came some bully boys and smashed all of his mud doves. In retaliation, Jesus cursed them and they withered up and died. This is wholly inconsistent with what we know about Jesus.

    As the Christian faith moved forward and was no longer under the leadership of those who knew Jesus, there was allot of folks trying to reinterpret Jesus and filter him through various Greek religions and philosophies. Gnosticism was one of the better known attempts to reinvent the Christian faith. It was a constant struggle for the early church to call balls and strikes on these perversions.

    This struggle is not over as folks on the left and the right try and put their stamp on the historic Christian faith.

    To call these false writing "banned gospels" is to display a massive ignorance of church history and the subject at hand. The scoffers love to point to them in their efforts to discount Scripture as the rule and guide for the Christian faith.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    The list is not of "banned gospels" but a list of pseudographica (false writing). The early Church was plagued by such false writtings. Folks would write whatever kind of nonsense they wanted and falsely state the author was some noted person. It was quite a problem in the early church to maintain a central core of its teachings. This was addressed in two ways.

    1. The development of creeds which stated the core truth of the Christian faith.

    2. The development of the Canon of Scripture. In developing what scriptures were "Canonical" and which were not. There were standards (canon) which were applied. They were;

    A. Was it written by an Apostle or under the authority of an Apostle?
    B. Was it accepted as genuine by the 1st. Century church, and circulated in those churches?
    C. Was the content consistent with the undisputed four Gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke and John)

    Notes on A above: The false Gospels contained many weird and bazaar statements about Jesus. There were a number of "infancy gospels" in these false writings. One, I recall had Jesus as a child, making some doves out of mud. Along came some bully boys and smashed all of his mud doves. In retaliation, Jesus cursed them and they withered up and died. This is wholly inconsistent with what we know about Jesus.

    As the Christian faith moved forward and was no longer under the leadership of those who knew Jesus, there was allot of folks trying to reinterpret Jesus and filter him through various Greek religions and philosophies. Gnosticism was one of the better known attempts to reinvent the Christian faith. It was a constant struggle for the early church to call balls and strikes on these perversions.

    This struggle is not over as folks on the left and the right try and put their stamp on the historic Christian faith.

    To call these false writing "banned gospels" is to display a massive ignorance of church history and the subject at hand. The scoffers love to point to them in their efforts to discount Scripture as the rule and guide for the Christian faith.
    Thanks, I hoped that you’d address this.

  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Thanks, I hoped that you’d address this.
    I am glad you found it helpful. To help folks understand was the reason I took the time to put up the post. I will now just try and ignore the "slings and arrows" that are certain to come my way from folks with various theological axes to grind. This forum is predictable if it is anything'

    "Always remember, my younger brother, that theology is not God. It is just people talking about God".
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 444ttd View Post
    .... Emperor Constantine was the "editor" for the Old and New Testament of the Christian Holy Bible.
    Not quite so but you repeat what many Bible conspiracy quacks proclaim.

    Constantine gets a bad rap. He had nothing to do with the Old Testament canon as such ("canon" is the correct table of contents for both parts of the Bible). Jews had established the O.T canon several hundred years before ol' Conny was born. Conny was the emperor of the Roman Empire in the early 300 AD period; he at least leaned towards Christianity. He was well aware that Christianity was a growing force in his empire and many spurious writings claiming to be God's were floating around.

    He called a meeting of Roman empire church leaders to Nicia, Turkey, in 325 AD, to establish approved canons of both the Old and New Testaments for use in all Roman churches. (They did but that approved list wasn't finalised until about 380 AD and Constantine was dead.)

    The attending church leaders at Nicea submitted books for consideration. They studied, argued and voted over their favorite books until only those we now have were left.

    Constantine was no theologian and didn't try to be; he simply approved one of the lists submitted to him by the council to become the approved canon.

    Thus, no books were "banned" from use, at least not as such, because the Council didn't have that power; the other books were simply not approved for canon. Individual churches could use any books they wished but they did it without the thumbprint of the Church Council.

    What follows here is a list of the books left out of the Bible.

    The Gospel of the Birth of Mary
    The Protevangelion
    The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ
    Thomas's Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ
    The Epistles of Jesus --- Etc, etc.
    Well, I suppose every book ever written but not included in the NT canon was effectively "left out" or "banned." But the rejected writings at the time were deemed forgeries, and some were partly or largely uninspired by God (i.e., wrong), others were redundant to what was written in other already accepted books. Those wise men lived in times still close to the events and I trust their judgements. Meaning I don't believe God has allowed any part of his message to be lost.

    The Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene were banned by a man by the name of Saint Ireneaus. St Ireneaus chose four Gospels because he reasoned we only have four compass points and four winds of the earth, so we only need four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). The Gospels of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary Madgalene didn't fit in with St. Ireaneus beliefs so he condemed them as heresay and declared no one was going to have them.
    What was rejected and what was included in the canon was based on a vote, book by book, by the Nicean council. Contrary to what some have written, no one man (or group) has had the legitimate authority to make such judgements on the canon.

    The Banned Gospels of the Bible documentary is a 9 part documentary available to view here:
    "Gospel" is a Greek word that simply means "good news". For Christians gospel specifically means the good news of man's salvation by the grace (love) and mercy of God through faith in Lord Jesus, not according to our works.

    I haven't viewed or read any of the "gospels" you find on youtube (and won't) but I greatly doubt any of them actually tell us anything different and truthful about the real gospel that's found in the first four books of the N.T.

    Bottom line, youtube is a great source of some very good spiritual stuff and I often watch it. But, sadly, it also has some very bad religious poo pushers we should quickly reject. (Including those who proclaim they have found "forbidden/hidden/over-looked" bible books.)

    Making money through religious "documentaries" and wonderful new "gospel books", and now TV, is and always has been a great way to pick up a lot of money by soliciting for false preachers and their special books. Do a web search for the likes of Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, Jim Baker, Joel Osteen, Benny Hind, et al.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixit View Post
    Be careful how you approach an explanation. In no way did I say God is evil, I merely made the distinction between what is good, and what is evil.
    Hmmm,....well, you be careful what you post in a thread then.
    You posted about your view on good vs evil in a thread with a different topic (God).
    It was a natural assumption of mine to assume you were on topic.
    Hence the question to you if you were suggesting God was evil.
    I did not say that you said God was evil.
    Get it?

    The direction of this thread had devolved to the point that it appeared to accuse God of evil, as many have attempted in times past. My posting was less a response to your initial posting, and more an address to the developing trend that seemed to suggest God to have promoted sin, which isn't going to happen!
    For me, while reading about all the killing going on by God, it really did not occur to me about the "sin" issue.
    One of God's Commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."
    Yet, there are many passages that show He was involved in those killings, directly or indirectly.
    There are several stories where God instructs Moses to send his people to destroy and kill other "communities" (for lack of better words).
    So, it would seem from reading the Bible that God did "promote sin".

    I must say that this bothers me a bit to read these things about God, yet, there it is in black and white in the Bible.
    We can pass this off as not being able to understand God and his motives.
    Just shrug our shoulders and move on because we are not capable of understanding.

    Because of that, perhaps this Deep Theology Discussion forum is a waste of time since we do not know.
    Anyway, this is how I think and wonder what others think, so it is a good place to discuss these things.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by .429&H110 View Post
    I know when I am being ignored.
    Not sure what you mean by that 429&H110.
    I do read your posts and appreciate your input.

    Looking back at your other post here you asked:
    The only way the group is going to get out of the desert, is to follow Moses following the Pillar of Fire.
    Do you see where Moses gave them overnight and the next morning to repent?
    No, I do not recall that part but I will reread that section.
    Is Romans 6:23 any more gentle?
    "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ".
    Not more gentle, just another possible explanation for why God did what He did.
    How is it that your hearts are so hardened?
    Was it a religion that did that?
    For me, my heart is not hardened.
    My love for God has not changed.
    As I get older my thought process has changed though.
    My previous readings of the Bible did not have such an effect on me as it does now.

    Regarding religion, I was raised Catholic but I am not a practicing Catholic.
    However, Catholic school did give me a good foundation for how I am today.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I am glad you found it helpful. To help folks understand was the reason I took the time to put up the post.
    Like I've stated before, I appreciate your input.
    However, I am still trying to understand some of what you have posted.
    See Post #23 that you have seemed to overlook.

    I will now just try and ignore the "slings and arrows" that are certain to come my way from folks with various theological axes to grind. This forum is predictable if it is anything'
    A bit paranoid there aren't you?
    Slings and arrows at you?
    LOL, I get a barage of those at me when I try to discuss issues such as this.

    Replying to you and questioning what you have posted is not an attack on you.
    It is what DTD is about isn't it?
    An exchange of views/beliefs for everyone's benefit.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    One of God's Commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."
    Are you certain? I believe that the correct translation is “murder” rather than “kill.”

    Lots of killing in the old testament, both by God directly and by his orders.

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Like I've stated before, I appreciate your input.
    However, I am still trying to understand some of what you have posted.
    See Post #23 that you have seemed to overlook.


    A bit paranoid there aren't you?
    Slings and arrows at you?
    LOL, I get a barage of those at me when I try to discuss issues such as this.

    Replying to you and questioning what you have posted is not an attack on you.
    It is what DTD is about isn't it?
    An exchange of views/beliefs for everyone's benefit.
    I will not engage with you, because your are not asking honest questions. You wish to argue and dispute and use fake questions as your stalking horse. I will not play your games. You will now be added to my ignore list.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  16. #56
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    Please keep it civil here guys...

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Are you certain? I believe that the correct translation is “murder” rather than “kill.”
    You are correct, the proper wording would have been, should have been, "You shall not murder." That one word 1611 KJV translation error (Exodus 20:13) has caused mankind a lot of unnecessary spiritual turmoil.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    You are correct, the proper wording would have been, should have been, "You shall not murder." That one word 1611 KJV translation error (Exodus 20:13) has caused mankind a lot of unnecessary spiritual turmoil.
    The first widely accepted English update to the KJV, the Revised Version of 1885, translated Ex 20:13 to "do no murders." Then the Americans made their input to the Revised Version in 1901 (calling it the ASV) and for some reason went back to "do not kill."

    Most modern English versions indicate murder vs. killing.

    However, a full grasp of the entire Bible would lead one to arrive at this conclusion without having to rely on the translation of a single word.

    Added: Cambridge Bibles makes a really nice KJV/Revised Version interlinear that shows differences between the two translations. Where the text differs, it is indicated in two smaller parallel lines.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 05-31-2021 at 08:03 PM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Most modern English versions indicate murder vs. killing.

    However, a full grasp of the entire Bible would lead one to arrive at this conclusion without having to rely on the translation of a single word.
    Quite true. But I know of no one who has a complete understanding of the Bible so we must do the best we can with what we do know. And we do know that "You shall do no murder" is what was meant by God.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Quite true. But I know of no one who has a complete understanding of the Bible so we must do the best we can with what we do know. And we do know that "You shall do no murder" is what was meant by God.
    What I meant by "full grasp of the entire Bible" is an understanding of the Big Picture, not an understanding of every detail. Plenty of people have the former even if they don't know all the details or get some of them wrong. It is not a difficult book to understand when approached properly and honestly (as a Big Picture that is).

    The real problem is people who fixate on what they feel are contradictions. When a reader concludes the Bible contradicts itself, they are missing something or looking for excuses.

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