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Thread: God, the killer

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by tankgunner59 View Post
    I would reply to you too, but it is obvious to all who read the OP that you want to argue for the sake of argument.
    Yet, you did reply didn't you.

    I refuse to allow you to draw me into an argument for argument's sake.
    It is a discussion, not an argument, of what I've been reading in the Bible and I solicited members here for their view.
    It sounds like you are the one who wants to argue.

    If you have a question simply state it without covertly insulting believers.
    I did simply state my questions in the 1st post.
    Apparently you did not read the whole post.

    So you are insulted with my post.
    No insults were intended.
    I apologize if I have insulted you.
    ......How are you insulted?


    [You can reply to my post if you wish, but as I said I won't be drawn into an argument with you, so I won't be watching this post.
    Hit and run, eh?
    ...and with no constructive input on the topic.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    That is not a valid understanding of plenary inspiration. Plenary means "full', so the total and full man is taken into consideration. That includes his history, culture, and context of the writing. The verbal dictation theory is the minority position when taking in the entire world Christian spectrum.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    That is not a valid understanding of plenary inspiration. Plenary means "full', so the total and full man is taken into consideration. That includes his history, culture, and context of the writing. The verbal dictation theory is the minority position when taking in the entire world Christian spectrum.

    Sorry, but I am confused with what you wrote.

    Bible passages state that God did those things, yet you say man did those things.
    You haven't explained how you came to that conclusion when the Bible states otherwise.
    In simple terms please.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Lloyd,

    First, not all non-Catholics are Protestants.

    Second, many things in scripture are symbolic and it behoves us to know the difference between symbolism and reality. Jesus is called the Lamb of God and the Good Shepherd, the Rock of Ages and the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, etc.; surely you understand that He is not a lamb or a shepherd, nor a rock or a lion. Likewise, no matter what your favorite priest or Pope says, you should also understand that chunks of bread and sips of wine taken in the holy communion are symbolic of Jesus' eternally sustaining body and life; they quite obviously are NOT Jesus' litteral body and life giving blood.
    odd thing is theres not way to determine what is fact and what is parables. Every denomination seems to differ in opinions. Like i said if it was truely wrote or the man was inspired by God youd think it would have been much clearer. Why did he leave room for MANS interpetation. If i were god and wanted a book on how i wanted you to act if you wanted to get into heaven it would be clear and to the point. Then all the importance some put on it today thinking if you dont have scripture memorized your a failed christian. Keep in mind that the average man back then didnt read a lick. Never held a bible. Only the rich and powerful could read and afford a bible. Then my own church for decades read it in latin so that we couldnt understand what they were saying. Pretty scetchy in my opionion to call it holy or sacred. Its a book written by man. Greatest history book ever wrote though.

    yes i realize that not all Christians that arent catholic are protestant. Many even called protestant that shouldnt be. Some border line cults. By the way didnt God inspire the old testament?? Did he miss the part where he was going to send his son to change our minds. Seems to me he said the JEWS were his people. Never heard him or moses or any of the old testament profits mention Jesus. Seems odd an all knowing gods best hint was some profit saying a savior would be sent. Doubt he meant that that savior was going to kick the Jews out of heaven.

    Dont get me wrong. I go to mass every sunday. Ive read the bible cover to cover a number of times. But ive found more questions then answer in both the bible and church. It doesnt change the fact i believe in God and have faith in him. But i dont need a priest or a book to tell me how that faith should be expressed.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 05-29-2021 at 05:08 PM.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    .... odd thing is theres not way to determine what is fact and what is parables.
    I would challenge you that there's no way to determine which parts of scripture is fact and which is parable (and if it matters) but that's not the question before us now.

    It is a fact that Bible allegory and metaphor are not parables; as Hebrew figures of speech surely that's not hard to grasp.

    It is a fact that the human Jesus is not and never has been a lamb or a lion, nor is he a rock. And, contrary to Roman Catholic teaching, the holy communion elements are quite obviously not Jesus' literal human body and blood.

    Parables are human stories Jesus told to clearly illustrate ideas in ways others could easily relate to. Thus, fact is, the ceremonial Lord's Table elements of the body and blood of Jesus are not a parable. Instead, it's metaphor, meaning they are strong representations of something they most certainly are not.

  6. #26
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    Rather than the perfect engineer, OT God would seem to be more like Thomas Edison randomly trying different filament materials in order to find something that makes a successful light bulb, or maybe a potter who can't get his blob of clay properly centered on the potter's wheel, Before the great Biblical calamities, there were the great mass extinction events. This is a lot of pressing of the "reset" button for a being that is supposed to be able to generate his desired reality via finger snaps. Then there's this premise that a third of God's angels - who presumably got answers straight from the source and had the scope to understand them - agreed that there was good enough reason to resign from the cabinet. That's enough of a break-off to form a legitimate political party with a real shot at winning elections

    But as an outside observer to Western monotheism, I don't know that there's really much difference between OT "be good or I'll cover you in locusts" and NT "embrace Jesus or go to Hell". Both seem suspiciously like constructs by men intended to keep other men in line. Occam's Razor - who is more likely to lay down rules like that; the Uber-Being that can create entire galaxies with a thought, or the local strong man wanting an extra tool that keeps peasants obedient, farming, and paying the taxes that keep him fat, drunk, and well-wenched? Also, the OT is based on the premise that the Hebrews were God's chosen. Didn't he also make Egyptians? Nubians? Syrians? Persians? If so, The Book seems a mite clannish and human-generated as an excuse for reinforcing a claim. (interesting that with the entire planet and universe, we have to fight to this day over a speck called Jerusalem)

    Either from inside or outside of the mythology, I can't see how one comes to the conclusion that the Great Entity is one of perfection, benevolence, or even competence.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  7. #27
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    I need to comment, but first apologize if this has already been said.... I did not read all of the posts. The nature of evil is much understand. Many think of evil as the opposite of good, but that would be wrong.... evil is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. Some may call this semantics, but I would argue otherwise.

  8. #28
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    Here we go again. All I know is that my mama always said "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out!" Same with God. He made us and He can break us. Trying to understand the Bible with the mortal mind doesn't work.
    The unexamined life is not worth living....Socrates
    Pain, is just weakness leaving the body....USMC
    Fast is fine, but accuracy is FINAL!....Wyatt Earp

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselhorses View Post
    Here we go again. All I know is that my mama always said "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out!" Same with God. He made us and He can break us. Trying to understand the Bible with the mortal mind doesn't work.
    that is the real truth. But many sure seem to claim to be experts on it.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  10. #30
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    Boy o boy ....

    Now open your closed hearts.

    You are not looking at the bible as followers, as sheep that follow their masters call.

    Your trying to make an understanding where there is confusion. Harden hearts look this up.

    God has made the Bible for you to understand; Repent, confess that you know Jesus and your a sinner. Get baptized, born again, follow, love God, Jesus.

    Look up:

    Children, child, kid

    Goats behavior

    Sheep behavior

    Meek

    Sinner

    Repent

    Look at these for there basic meaning not all twisted up look to be a hard headed goat ready to fight your master. This my help you understand.

    Before it gets all twisted I live by the sword I will die by the sword.

    Most of the bible is a history facts of the happening that needed to be told for a basic understanding. You'll see my keep saying basic. I not going to be able answer all the question but hope I can help you understand God and Jesus.

  11. #31
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    Look at the flood.

    Let try to understand this. Was there rain before the flood?

    Did the people make fun of Noah?

    Was Noah a out case of the normal thinking?

    How many years did he try to teach, explain to the masses that a flood was coming?

    Would they have been saved if they would have helped build and get in before the rain started?

    "Basically don't wait to long to listen to God Word for if you wait until the door is shut and rain is falling it's too late. He's (God) not going to list to your calls for help. You are not one of his flock "

  12. #32
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    Sodom and Gomorrah

    Explain the basic story here. In your own words.

    Were they given a chance. Did this happen? What is the meaning of the names?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Rather than the perfect engineer, OT God would seem to be more like Thomas Edison randomly trying different filament materials in order to find something that makes a successful light bulb, or maybe a potter who can't get his blob of clay properly centered on the potter's wheel, Before the great Biblical calamities, there were the great mass extinction events. This is a lot of pressing of the "reset" button for a being that is supposed to be able to generate his desired reality via finger snaps. Then there's this premise that a third of God's angels - who presumably got answers straight from the source and had the scope to understand them - agreed that there was good enough reason to resign from the cabinet. That's enough of a break-off to form a legitimate political party with a real shot at winning elections

    But as an outside observer to Western monotheism, I don't know that there's really much difference between OT "be good or I'll cover you in locusts" and NT "embrace Jesus or go to Hell". Both seem suspiciously like constructs by men intended to keep other men in line. Occam's Razor - who is more likely to lay down rules like that; the Uber-Being that can create entire galaxies with a thought, or the local strong man wanting an extra tool that keeps peasants obedient, farming, and paying the taxes that keep him fat, drunk, and well-wenched? Also, the OT is based on the premise that the Hebrews were God's chosen. Didn't he also make Egyptians? Nubians? Syrians? Persians? If so, The Book seems a mite clannish and human-generated as an excuse for reinforcing a claim. (interesting that with the entire planet and universe, we have to fight to this day over a speck called Jerusalem)

    Either from inside or outside of the mythology, I can't see how one comes to the conclusion that the Great Entity is one of perfection, benevolence, or even competence.
    You have a way of expressing your views by way of your analogies (i.e. Edison, the potter) that make your point.
    Much like Jesus did with his parables.

    I think that discussions like this (your analogies and perhaps my thread title God, the Killer) make some people here nervous, angry and apparently insulted.
    That is not the intent.

    I've read the Bible before, but this time I am seeing stuff that really stands out to me.
    That is, (at this point in the OT) all the killing going on by God.

    I imagine that to question or criticize God would have gotten the person stoned in those days.
    There is some verbal "stoning" that does go on here once in awhile though.

    But, when I read that stuff it tends to go against what I have been told, or read, since my youth. That is the notion that God is all loving, perfect, etc., etc.
    So,....thoughts and questions about what I have just read start swirling around in my head and bring me to a point that makes me wonder what others think about them.
    Hence, I bring them to this forum for discussion.

    Thanks for your input.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixit View Post
    I need to comment, but first apologize if this has already been said.... I did not read all of the posts. The nature of evil is much understand. Many think of evil as the opposite of good, but that would be wrong.... evil is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. Some may call this semantics, but I would argue otherwise.
    You seem to be focused on evil.
    Per the 1st post, this thread is about Bible passages that show God as a mass killer.
    Are you suggesting that God is evil?
    I am not suggesting that.
    1A - 2A = -1A

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy (punchie) View Post
    Sodom and Gomorrah

    Explain the basic story here. In your own words.

    Were they given a chance. Did this happen? What is the meaning of the names?
    The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is juxtaposed with the story of Abraham feeding and caring for the strangers. It is a comparison between a loving neighbor and a wicked city. Abraham cares for the strangers while the citizens of S&G attempt to attack them in order to fulfill their own desires. The actions are polar opposites. S&G are the opposite of everything God wanted man to be. Abraham meets God's requirement to "love your neighbor."

    S&G were destroyed because they were totally wicked without even one person, save Lot, who was even remotely righteous. Notice how in the NT that Lot is called "righteous." He was the only one in S&G to attempt to protect his visitors (despite his weird methods).

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    You have a way of expressing your views by way of your analogies (i.e. Edison, the potter) that make your point.
    Much like Jesus did with his parables.

    I think that discussions like this (your analogies and perhaps my thread title God, the Killer) make some people here nervous, angry and apparently insulted.
    That is not the intent.

    I've read the Bible before, but this time I am seeing stuff that really stands out to me.
    That is, (at this point in the OT) all the killing going on by God. . .
    "All the killing going on by God. . ."

    Call this another one of my analogies. You ever watch the nature documentary series Blue Planet, about ocean life? In it, there are numerous instances of huge schools of millions of sardines, anchovies, mackerel or other small fish that get herded into "bait balls" and devoured practically "to the last man" by dolphin, whales, tuna, and other predators.

    Kinda makes me wonder if sardines raise their children with moralistic warnings that the consequences of of a life of sin is to die in a "Bluefin Apocalypse".

    My point (maybe) is that we probably aren't dying more horribly or in greater numbers than any other critter on this ball of water and dirt - the difference may be that we just have the ability to dwell on it.

    That intelligence may well be the big Darwinian experiment, and we could certainly have a discussion on whether that whole "Tree of Knowledge" thing was a worthwhile attempt or not, and whether or not God/Nature/Whatever is working to purge it from us.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy (punchie) View Post
    Boy o boy ....

    Now open your closed hearts.

    You are not looking at the bible as followers, as sheep that follow their masters call.

    Your trying to make an understanding where there is confusion. Harden hearts look this up.

    God has made the Bible for you to understand; Repent, confess that you know Jesus and your a sinner. Get baptized, born again, follow, love God, Jesus.

    Look up:

    Children, child, kid

    Goats behavior

    Sheep behavior

    Meek

    Sinner

    Repent

    Look at these for there basic meaning not all twisted up look to be a hard headed goat ready to fight your master. This my help you understand.

    Before it gets all twisted I live by the sword I will die by the sword.

    Most of the bible is a history facts of the happening that needed to be told for a basic understanding. You'll see my keep saying basic. I not going to be able answer all the question but hope I can help you understand God and Jesus.
    Teddy your flowery words are about as confusing as the bible were talking about. Bunch of flowery words that say nothing. Hope you impressed someone. Try again and this time dont speek in circles.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    ... we probably aren't dying more horribly or in greater numbers than any other critter on this ball of water and dirt - the difference may be that we just have the ability to dwell on it.
    Big, you're lightly touching on a great truth those who condemn God for "killing" so many people in the Old Testament don't get. There is scripture saying there is a time to live and a time to die (Ecc 3:1-8) and no one in this present world is going to get out of here alive; so far the birth to death rate for all ages has basically been 1:1. Thus, in the large view, we self-made human interlecsuls sitting around and contemplating our own belly buttons while getting our panties in a wad towards God because bunches of people die seems quite petty.

    Paul said it best, "I know whom I have believed and I am persuaded that he is able to keep what I've committed to him in the end." Later there will be time to study things such as individual life spans that I don't understand right now. For now, I just accept that God REALLY doesn't need my help figgering out how human history (collective or personal) should rightly be unrolled.

    Bottom line, advising and correcting God is way above my pay grade; he knows more and is smarter than me anyway. I have my hands full just dealing with the things I do know about and leave the rest up to Him.

  19. #39
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    This thread about to shift to a discussion of spiritual death vs physical death or will it take another page?

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    This thread about to shift to a discussion of spiritual death vs physical death or will it take another page?
    I believe that much difference in topic warrants a new page.

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