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Thread: God, the killer

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    God, the killer

    God the killer.
    That sounds terrible doesn't it.
    Is it blasphemy to say such a thing...that is true?

    I am reading the Bible again and I am now in Numbers.

    At this point there are several instances where God kills people.
    The story of Noah's Ark and the Great Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, A man is picking up sticks on the Sabbath and God tells Moses that he should be stoned to death, the parting of the Red Sea and then the waters close back up and kills the Egyptians, when Moses and the Jews are in the desert God opens up the earth to a large pit where all of the people and their belongings fall into it and then God closes up the pit.
    There are other stories about others being killed.

    I can't help but think that there were some good people that got caught up in those mass killings by God.
    It's pretty depressing.
    So much for "Free Will".

    There is quite a contrast to the God in the New Testament vs the Old Testament but "scholars" tell us that "No, God is the same. He is unchanged".
    Hmmm,...perhaps, but we do not see that wrathful, jealous God acting out that way in the New Testament and in these modern days.

    Obviously God can do whatever He wants to, but what are we supposed to think when we read these things?
    He seems to be using fear (in the Old Testament) as a motivator for us to worship Him.

    Yet, God is Love and understanding God is beyond our comprehension.

    So, for me, I am looking forward to finishing the Old Testament and getting into the New Testament.
    Jesus is a more compassionate person and doesn't seem the type that would have someone stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

    I'd say there are a few Bible readers here.
    Do you get the same impression about God in the Old Testament?
    Do you see a contrast in God in Old vs New?
    How could you not see that?
    1A - 2A = -1A

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master


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    I have come to the conclusion that God is not perfect. The common rationalization is that we cannot ever understand Him, but that does not cover all of His mistakes.

    In the 400 years between the OT and NT, I agree with you that God changed. He realized what He was doing was not working.

    BTW, I also see verses that indicate God cannot predict with 100% certainty what will happen in the future. This goes against the common conception of God being all knowing. He knows all that has happened, and all that is happening, but not all of what will happen. The very concept of free will becomes questionable if He already knows what every person will do.
    Don Verna

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master


    Ickisrulz's Avatar
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    God is the same in the OT and NT.

    Because God is loving, it is his intention to remove evil. He did this directly at certain times in the OT so mankind could continue to exist (i.e., flood). The Law was enacted for Israel so she could be as free from evil as possible. For those that exercised evil in Israel, they were removed so their influence would no longer exist. Israel was used to eliminate the Canaanites who practiced evil, but only when they were too far gone. Sodom and Gomorrah were also too far gone and had become the polar opposite of what God wanted man to be (little to do with homosexuality).

    In the early Church, evil influences were removed directly by God (e.g., Ananias and Sapphira). We don't see this now as we are far removed from the physical evidence the First Century Christians saw. But it is God's promise that evil will be removed from earth. This will involve violence.

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    God is the same in the OT and NT.

    Because God is loving, it is his intention to remove evil. He did this directly at certain times in the OT so mankind could continue to exist (i.e., flood). The Law was enacted for Israel so she could be as free from evil as possible. For those that exercised evil in Israel, they were removed so their influence would no longer exist. Israel was used to eliminate the Canaanites who practiced evil, but only when they were too far gone. Sodom and Gomorrah were also too far gone and had become the polar opposite of what God wanted man to be (little to do with homosexuality).

    In the early Church, evil influences were removed directly by God (e.g., Ananias and Sapphira). We don't see this now as we are far removed from the physical evidence the First Century Christians saw. But it is God's promise that evil will be removed from earth. This will involve violence.
    I will submit that God created evil. It did not start with Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. One third of the Angels rebelled before man's first sin. There could not have been evil if God had not created it...He is the creator of everything. Evil had to exist for it to be part of the Tree of Knowledge.

    IMO a "loving God", would not place the Tree of Knowledge in the garden of Eden. Especially if He knows Adam and Eve would eat from it. If He knows the future, He knew they would disobey. He did not protect them from evil. He further shows his lack of love by condemning all future generations of women to suffer pain in childbirth and for man to work the soil to get his food. Seems like a lot of punishment for something He knew was going to happen and enabled it to happen. And this "loving God" inflicted that punishment not to just Adam and Eve, but on all men and women of future generations.

    BTW, the rise of Satan, and the fall of 1/3 of His angels are the start of His mistakes. He either did not know what was going to happen (not all knowing?), or allowed it to happen.

    We can agree to disagree. I see a difference in the God of the OT and NT.
    Don Verna

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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    It's always interesting to read the vacuous "beliefs" of self-important people who disbelieve God when they start pontificating on the limits, errors, goals and methods of the God they don't believe.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    I will regret answering this, but who knows, it might do some good. The OP is based on a very shallow understanding of the culture and context of he ancient Hebrew writer. Start by understanding that this was written thousands of years ago by an ancient Jew in what is now the Middle East.

    Greco-Roman thinking comes at things in series. First there is A, then there is B, then there is C and so on. Cause and effect is determined by looking at the sequence of events. Ancient Jews didn't think like that, they thought in terms of First Cause. Let me illustrate: I have a bad life crisis, become despondent, go to the top of a tall building on jump off, killing myself when it hit the ground. To understand this, we (Greco-Roman Logic again), look at my mental state, as the prime mover of my death.

    The Ancient Jew doesn't follow that logic, but goes straight to the first cause, God killed me. God created the earth which includes gravity, it was gravity that killed me and hence God killed me. The OT is pure ancient Jew thinking. The NT (with perhaps the exception of the book of Hebrews) was written in Greek using Greco-Roman thinking. Hence the asperate disconnect.

    Without context, we don't ever understand the Evening News, yet folks totally discount culture and context when trying to understand the Bible. Now, I am not going to argue with any of you and try to prove I am right. I know what I am talking about and that is enough for me. Carry on with this silliness of making God a killer.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 05-28-2021 at 11:17 AM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    From Ezekiel 33:11 (OT) "I take no pleasure in the death of a wicked man but desire that all come to repentance".
    For me, as a pot and not the potter, that helps see the bigger picture.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    It's always interesting to read the vacuous "beliefs" of self-important people who disbelieve God when they start pontificating on the limits, errors, goals and methods of the God they don't believe.
    Wow, interesting word.
    Definition of vacuous:

    1 : emptied of or lacking content
    2 : marked by lack of ideas or intelligence : stupid, inane a vacuous mind a vacuous movie
    3 : devoid of serious occupation : idle

    What's the matter, can't handle the topic or questions put forth?
    Can't handle the Truth?
    Do you deny these things that were posted?

    Instead you post insults to the OP and once again you "...bear false witness".
    1A - 2A = -1A

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I will regret answering this, but who knows, it might do some good.
    Char-Gar,
    Despite what you say, I appreciate your input.
    It is not just me reading your replies but others as well.
    So, yes, "it might do some good".

    The OP is based on a very shallow understanding of the culture and context of he ancient Hebrew writer. Start by understanding that this was written thousands of years ago by an ancient Jew in what is now the Middle East.
    Well, what was written in the Bible was inspired, or came from God.
    The one writing it (Moses?, Joshua?), or when it was written should not matter since it is God's Word.
    The Bible's messages and accounts are for all generations.

    So, according to you, there is a prerequisite before one reads the Bible.
    Are we to first read historical accounts of the culture of the ancient Hebrews in order to understand what the Word of God (Bible) means?

    Perhaps that would help understand how things were back then but would it change the meaning of what was written?

    Without context, we don't ever understand the Evening News, yet folks totally discount culture and context when trying to understand the Bible.
    The context is in the Bible. It tells some history and gives a sense about how things were back then.
    From that context, we have things written that by today's "standards" seem (to me) grossly overkill.
    Such as the man dragged out of town and stoned to death by the community, for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

    Carry on with this silliness of making God a killer.
    Silliness?
    Did He or did He not do those things?
    1A - 2A = -1A

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    I see the ot wrapped around the introduction and conclusion of the law. A set of rules no man besides Jesus could follow, A set of laws that made us all unworthy. That set a stage for Jesus life, death and most importantly his resurrection that redeemed us once and for all. Yes people and nations thought it a good idea to choose to be enemies with God but the presence of directional choices is what ensures that what we do is because of our free will.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    [QUOTE Silliness?
    Did He or did He not do those things?[/QUOTE]

    No he did not! People did it and blamed it on God. Folks still do that wholesale today. I hold the "plenary inspiration" of scripture and not the "verbal dictation" theory that is so prevalent on this forum. That is it. I just wanted to give a straight answer to a straight question. No more debate is needed.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I will submit that God created evil. It did not start with Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. One third of the Angels rebelled before man's first sin. There could not have been evil if God had not created it...He is the creator of everything. Evil had to exist for it to be part of the Tree of Knowledge.

    IMO a "loving God", would not place the Tree of Knowledge in the garden of Eden. Especially if He knows Adam and Eve would eat from it. If He knows the future, He knew they would disobey. He did not protect them from evil. He further shows his lack of love by condemning all future generations of women to suffer pain in childbirth and for man to work the soil to get his food. Seems like a lot of punishment for something He knew was going to happen and enabled it to happen. And this "loving God" inflicted that punishment not to just Adam and Eve, but on all men and women of future generations.

    BTW, the rise of Satan, and the fall of 1/3 of His angels are the start of His mistakes. He either did not know what was going to happen (not all knowing?), or allowed it to happen.

    We can agree to disagree. I see a difference in the God of the OT and NT.
    I don't agree that creating a choice is the same as creating evil.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    Wow, interesting word.
    Definition of vacuous:

    1 : emptied of or lacking content
    2 : marked by lack of ideas or intelligence : stupid, inane a vacuous mind a vacuous movie
    3 : devoid of serious occupation : idle
    ..... Do you deny these things that were posted?
    No, I don't deny those things were posted and your question suggesting I did is silly! But, posting spiritual things from a foundation of spiritual ignorance is, by definition, vacuous!

    Instead you post insults to the OP and once again you "...bear false witness".
    Your non-believer's 'I miss the point' outrage based on tortured human logic applied to judge God is exactly what I did mean and there is nothing "false" about it.

    Spiritual things are spiritually seen. No non-believer is ever going to see his spiritual error based on human logic; that level of argument isn't our job assignment. God himself isn't going to make you, or anyone else, a puppet and force you to believe what you now refuse to believe about Him based on the evidence already placed before you ... not yet anyway. (Nor can a non-believer ever make a believer un-see or un-know what he has both seen and known.)

    It's not rational to blame God for evil. Evil is not a created thing, it's the state of rebellious minds. Since the fall of Adam, Satan's evil influence remains deep in the warped hearts of self-centered people who reject the undeserved gift of love from Lord Jesus.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    New Testament vs Old
    The man stoned for breaking the Sabbath is in Numbers 15. Numbers 16 is the rebellion of Korah, where God drops Korah and all his family and tent into a pit, then closes the pit. And then 250 princes are zapped by fire from Heaven. That's an extreme penalty for mutiny.
    The only way the group is going to get out of the desert, is to follow Moses following the Pillar of Fire.
    Do you see where Moses gave them overnight and the next morning to repent?

    Is Romans 6:23 any more gentle?
    "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ".

    The Old is the Prophesy of the New Testament. The whole Bible is about Jesus.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    I would reply to you too, but it is obvious to all who read the OP that you want to argue for the sake of argument. I refuse to allow you to draw me into an argument for argument's sake. If you have a question simply state it without covertly insulting believers. You can reply to my post if you wish, but as I said I won't be drawn into an argument with you, so I won't be watching this post.
    This is not the end. This not even the beginning of the end. But it is perhaps the end of the beginning! Winston Churchill, Nov. 1942

  16. #16
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    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    i have faith in God. Not faith in any book. The bible was written by man. Both the old and new testements. Man cant begin to understand God and how he thinks. No doubt they tried to explain him in words over mans ability to comprehend over 2000 years ago. Much older if were talking the old testament. Was it inspired by God? i dont know but ill say this. We know the world wasnt created in 7 days and we know people didnt live to be over 500 years old ever!

    We also know that Jesus being the son of God and part of the holy trinity knew his father and knew what would happen in the future. Odd thing is he made absolutely no mention of some catholic munks 100s of years later writing the new testament. ld think knowlege that important would have been at least hinted at. Why didnt he say he would inspire someone to write a book as important as that and that we should believe it as written without question. Im a catholic and get flack all the time from protestants because they say we worship idols which is total bs. I question them worshiping a book. Spending hours at bible study trying to out bible the guy sitting next to them trying to pretend they and only they know what the scriptures mean. Its ridiculous if you ask me. What the bible is to me is a guide. An instruction manual on how to live your life. Its a history book that is the closest thing we have to knowing what Jesus said and did. It is not in my opinion something touched by the hand of God and sacred. Now that even flys in the face of what my church teaches. I personally shake my head when the priest comes up the isle at the begging of mass holding a book about his head. If theres any idol worship its right there. I would also think that if God did have a hand in writing it it would be wrote so that man wouldnt have to question it or find hidden meanings in it. To say that he did was about like saying God didnt know what he was doing. I believe in God and i believe in Jesus Christ. I dont need a book or hidden meanings in it to justify my faith.

    Comical thing too is with the old testament. It is part of the bible. It flys in the face of much of the old testement. Does it mean that God was wrong?? That Jesus set us straight because his father didnt know what he was doing or is it like i believe. A book wrote by imperfect men that couldnt begin to understand GOD! Funny thing too is the ones that claim the most rock solid belief its the word of God are the ones that ignore what is wrote in plain and simple terms in it. Like the body and blood of Christ. He is quoted in it saying THIS IS MY BODY THIS IS MY BLOOD. Why do some protestants so badly want to twist those words. To impart a human opinion into the words of Jesus Christ. Words he said in the last minute of his life. Probably the most important thing he taught us. SO IMPORTANT that he gave that gift to his appostles as about the last thing he did on earth. A gift that not ONE of his appostles questioned. Was Jesus making jokes or pulling a prank just hours before he was nailed to the cross.

    Another thing i question is where the bible says when Jesus was nailed to the cross one of his last words were "father, why have you forsaken me" Sounds awful lot like Jesus was questioning his father. MANS WORDS. He knew what he was doing and did it without a fight. He knew why he had to do it so why question his father? Nope in my opinion your not only basing your believe on a book wrote by catholic munks but many even worship it as an idol.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Lloyd,

    The "problem" is that the Christian religions I know of view the Bible as inspired by God and infallible. I am not in that camp...but most Christians will view anyone who does not "toe the line" as a heretic or blasphemer.


    We are encouraged to read the Word of God...the Bible, and learn from it. Nothing wrong with that. But like the OP, we form opinions based on what we read. For example, when God ordered the Israelites to destroy other nations.....it was to be TOTAL destruction...every man, woman and child.

    “Of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you”

    It is argued that God used the Israelites as His tool to punish a people that had turned to evil. IMO that is far fetched at best....after all He had the power to destroy the evil in Sodom and Gomorrah without human assistance. I believe that what happened to the Canaanites was genocide...committed, and justified, by the Jews as working at Gods direction. BTW, the whole affair stinks...What kind of God would order a man to kill woman and children?....What were the psychological affects of such slaughter?....Would Jesus have done it?

    We keep being told we cannot possibly fathom how God thinks or His plan...so we cannot question things. I do not agree with that thinking. He created us to think and question.

    I agree with you that the Bible is the work of man...and man can screw up anything. So, while most of what is in the Bible is of great value, it is not the perfect Word of God. Yet, it is as close we we can get...so we study it and learn.
    Last edited by dverna; 05-29-2021 at 08:49 AM.
    Don Verna

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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    .....the ones that claim the most rock solid belief its the word of God are the ones that ignore what is wrote in plain and simple terms in it. Like the body and blood of Christ. He is quoted in it saying THIS IS MY BODY THIS IS MY BLOOD. Why do some protestants so badly want to twist those words. To impart a human opinion into the words of Jesus Christ.
    Lloyd,

    First, not all non-Catholics are Protestants.

    Second, many things in scripture are symbolic and it behoves us to know the difference between symbolism and reality. Jesus is called the Lamb of God and the Good Shepherd, the Rock of Ages and the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, etc.; surely you understand that He is not a lamb or a shepherd, nor a rock or a lion. Likewise, no matter what your favorite priest or Pope says, you should also understand that chunks of bread and sips of wine taken in the holy communion are symbolic of Jesus' eternally sustaining body and life; they quite obviously are NOT Jesus' litteral body and life giving blood.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    deverna.......

    I hold there is but one "Christian Religion", but within that camp are many, many shades, variations and iterations. They agree on a few basic points, but disagree on many points of dogma. In this disagreement, they hiss, fight, judge and diss each other. This open hostility toward other Christians over dogma is the biggest drag on the Christian faith. Most folks want to hear about Jesus, but when it comes to church and church dogma they walk away and frankly I don't blame them.

    There are multiple understandings of what "inspiration" is when it comes to Scripture. I won't go into them, but trust me they exist. When it comes to forums like this, the hyper fundamental people show up to "contend" for the faith, or at least their dogma about the Christian faith. Others, just walk away, not wanting to subject themselves to such arguments they will never win or even influence. At times, I try and inject some reason, perspective and balanced scholarship into the topics. I have no expectation that what I submit will be accepted or even influence the "warriors" that abide here, but others do drift through from time to time.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    Char-Gar;5197202]

    No he did not! People did it and blamed it on God. Folks still do that wholesale today. I hold the "plenary inspiration" of scripture and not the "verbal dictation" theory that is so prevalent on this forum. That is it. I just wanted to give a straight answer to a straight question. No more debate is needed.
    Plenary Inspiration:
    The Bible is God’s Word to humanity. It was written by human authors, but God prompted and guided them to write what they did. Every word, word form, and word placement found in the Bible’s original manuscripts was divinely and intentionally written. This is the orthodox view of the church and is known as verbal plenary inspiration.

    The Great Flood
    Genesis 7
    4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”

    Sodom and Gomorrah
    Genesis 19:23-29
    Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

    Plague on the first born
    Exodus 11
    1 Now the LORD had said to Moses, “I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt.

    etc., etc.

    Given the Plenary Inspiration definition and the Bible passages posted above, I am confused as to why you would state that man did those things and not God.
    Please explain.
    1A - 2A = -1A

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