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Thread: Cold / rust blue formulas

  1. #41
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    You should be able to find ammonium nitrate at a large agricultural supplier.
    its regulated under explosives legislation downunder these days, a couple of semi trailer loads of it blowing up enroute to the mines hasn't helped availability any.

  2. #42
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    Well I blued me Brno 1 barrel and happy with the way it came out.
    Learnt how I went wrong I think know.

    At one stage it was all gold like oil on a pond and I should have left it so I had a golden gun but I didn’t.
    Might call myself blotchy brothers gun blue inc.
    It sure is different.
    But I’m liking it.
    Well till I can do better
    Maybe I can start a new craze!
    secret squirrel formula and application.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    What yer reckon?
    Ye olde Rust brown/blue from the transitional era of gun making.
    Tiger eye blueing.


    Please note I’m gunna put all my stuff I’ve ever botched up on my resume as research and development and request a generous funding for future projects.
    Last edited by barrabruce; 07-13-2021 at 03:23 AM.

  3. #43
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    Looks good, especially for a first try. How many passes did it take?

    Rust bluing is tough, almost like Parkerizing, and will resist handling and wear much better than the finishes gotten by the various hot dunking and daubing bluing methods.

  4. #44
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    It took 4 passes but I think my 2 cup backpacking kettle wasn’t up to snuff and left water marks as I was told would happen.
    Some places really didn’t take on the first pass.
    And never caught up.
    I did soak it in a pvc tube of boiling water a couple of times in the end and it did convert a lot more to a black oxide.
    Heated up the barrel and rubbed vasalene in it.

    O.k. I will card before converting next time .
    Try a bigger kettle cranked up and heat the barrel up before steaming may work better.

    Isn’t there a attachment for those steam cleaners they were selling on t.v. Years ago.
    It’s about time they came back around as well as yoyo’s and things.


    I did scrub in hot soapy water first followed by spray electrical connection cleaner to really clean it first.

  5. #45
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    Be aware that with modern chrome moly steel a good number of "coats" may be reqiired
    before you get the color you want. I rust blued an option Green Mountain barrel and finally quit at maybe 10 repetitions.
    A gunsmith friend had told me that his grandfather always etched barrels with acid first to give the bluing solution a head start. When doing my barrel I forgot that step and it took 3-4 reps to start getting color. I used solution from Brownells and a tank to boil the barrel.
    Track of The Wolf browning solution also works for bluing and they advertise it as "browning/degreasing" solution. For rust bluing they recommend placing the part in a container and pouring boiling water to submerge it; a simpler and less expensive method. I used their solution to brown a barrel of lower grade steel and it made deep rich color very quickly.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonHowe View Post
    Be aware that with modern chrome moly steel a good number of "coats" may be reqiired
    before you get the color you want. I rust blued an option Green Mountain barrel and finally quit at maybe 10 repetitions.
    A gunsmith friend had told me that his grandfather always etched barrels with acid first to give the bluing solution a head start. When doing my barrel I forgot that step and it took 3-4 reps to start getting color. I used solution from Brownells and a tank to boil the barrel.
    Track of The Wolf browning solution also works for bluing and they advertise it as "browning/degreasing" solution. For rust bluing they recommend placing the part in a container and pouring boiling water to submerge it; a simpler and less expensive method. I used their solution to brown a barrel of lower grade steel and it made deep rich color very quickly.
    If they are not taking color,they were usually sanded too fine. Some want them to shine like a mirror before finishing. That will not work. Stop at 320 grit to give the steel some tooth, and I usually have a good blueing after a half dozen cycles.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  7. #47
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    I used to go 10 passes (2 a day for 5 days), but it seemed to me that the last pass began to etch the surface slightly. A matte finish resulted, which was OK, especially on a barrel, but next time I’ll see whether a more “deluxe” shine can be gotten with 9 passes.

    I concur with Waksupi. Too much polishing and the first pass or two will have trouble starting on the steel. The color seems to start the pores in the steel and proceed up to the outer surface, as opposed to the hot dunking, which starts at the surface and goes in until whoever is doing it thinks it’s done. When the outer surface wears a little, the pores are still blackened in the first case but are usually unfinished and shiny in the second, so handling wear shows up quicker in the second case. Having the pores accessible to start is a big plus.

  8. #48
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    Yeah I can see where the barrel has been rubbed or work hardened and a fine hard finish / polish has been achieved.
    Yes I believe you’s are right about needing some teeth in the metal.
    The first couple of test ones were just a machine finish and they bit or took better than this.
    It had various blues on it from touch up to factory.
    Next one I do will be better I’m sure.
    Still this ought to be more durable and I don’t think the quarry or targets will object too much.
    Ha
    Thanks for all the advice.
    I feel better doing this way than hot salt baths and harsh chemicals.
    I think I’ll try some different things to see how they come out.
    I got some tooling that could do with a coating also.

  9. #49
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    Mark lee and a heat gun

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeeMan View Post
    Cold packs can be a source of ammonium nitrate. Check the label or the Safety Data Sheet to make sure of what is in it.
    Yep.
    Those packs that you pop, and it gets cold, have ammonium nitrate in them.
    Can probably find then in any drug store, sporting goods shore, and probably in any box store.
    Isn't tree stump remover the same too????

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg S View Post
    There used to be a member her that mixed it and sold it in the BST Section. I was a pretty good mix as members had a good result with it.

    He had to stop for awhile and hasn't started back selling his brew. I think he was headed back to colledge.
    Yes, I'll be making some soon. It involves nitric acid which is pretty expensive to order nowadays and probably puts you on an alphabet agency watch list. Since I've retired, I'm at home with the kids now and that takes up most of my time.

    If you have a problem finding nitric acid, you can buy some ammonium nitrate at the local farm co-op and dissolve that under heat in hydrochloric/muriatic acid. That will make what the gold refiners call "poor man's aqua regia". (Google it for the ratios needed.) Dissolve steel (Outdoors!!!) Preferably wearing a respirator with a cartridge that filters/neutralizes acid fumes to protect your lungs, long rubber chemical resistant gloves, and a rubber apron.

    The red gas that is released is nitric oxide (red death). If you get a whiff of it it might irritate your lungs, but a good amount can kill you. If you have lung disease or asthma, don't even risk it.

    After the steel rich solution has dissolved all the steel it can hold, you can strain it thru a coffee filter and then mix it with 10 parts water/1 part acid ratio of distilled water. (Rain water is good too.) This gives you a relatively mild solution that doesn't rust aggressively and is safe to handle with bare hands. (Not toxic either)

    I still have about 300 empty bottles to fill, so give me some more time and i'll offer it for sale on the website.

    First aid for acid gas inhalation is sodium bicarb and water solution breathed thru a nebulizer. (Recipe used by Govt. researchers when studying effects of mustard gas on patients. The more you know...)
    Last edited by andremajic; 07-28-2021 at 08:38 AM.
    Check out my vendors section:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?231-Andy-s-Slow-Rust-Blue

    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by andremajic View Post
    Yes, I'll be making some soon. It involves nitric acid which is pretty expensive to order nowadays and probably puts you on an alphabet agency watch list. Since I've retired, I'm at home with the kids now and that takes up most of my time.

    If you have a problem finding nitric acid, you can buy some ammonium nitrate at the local farm co-op and dissolve that under heat in hydrochloric/muriatic acid. That will make what the gold refiners call "poor man's aqua regia". (Google it for the ratios needed.) Dissolve steel (Outdoors!!!) Preferably wearing a respirator with a cartridge that filters/neutralizes acid fumes to protect your lungs, long rubber chemical resistant gloves, and a rubber apron.

    The red gas that is released is nitric oxide (red death). If you get a whiff of it it might irritate your lungs, but a good amount can kill you. If you have lung disease or asthma, don't even risk it.

    After the steel rich solution has dissolved all the steel it can hold, you can strain it thru a coffee filter and then mix it with 10 parts water/1 part acid ratio of distilled water. (Rain water is good too.) This gives you a relatively mild solution that doesn't rust aggressively and is safe to handle with bare hands. (Not toxic either)

    I still have about 300 empty bottles to fill, so give me some more time and i'll offer it for sale on the website.

    First aid for acid gas inhalation is sodium bicarb and water solution breathed thru a nebulizer. (Recipe used by Govt. researchers when studying effects of mustard gas on patients. The more you know...)
    Andy's Rust Blue is the best I've ever used! Glad it will be back in production!
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  13. #53
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    Well still having troubles.
    Made a steam tube up and seemed to be going good with the first few coats.
    Althou the breach end wasn’t keeping up.
    Got to a stage where it started to darken up good.
    Me thinking yeah it’ll be right.It’s catching up, it’ll be alright.
    Ha the last time swabbing and steaming and I lost most of the dark colour.
    Just the thick part of the barrel at the receiver end.
    I don’t think it will rust anyway and I doubt I’ll get inundated by people wanting work done.

    I used a soft cast bullet tapped into the muzzle and a well fired case with some ptfe tape wrapped around it to seal the bore.
    After the 4 or five days of daubing and steaming it seemed to have survived.

    Maybe it help clean the barrel.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Took it down the range for a play and see If I wrecked and thing.
    Still working up a load at this moment.
    Apart from being mostly gusty and raining and only three of us stupid enough to show up. I put my faith in my one surviving beaten up wonky ‘ol wind flag.
    I’ve been working up a load and thought I would shoot a few anyway at different distances to work out a velocity curve by drop at distance.
    Sent 3 down at 100 yards after playing at 50 sighting in and could see a hole but no others.
    Dang looks like not even on target.
    Yep must have gone through side ways as I was walking up.
    Oops chalk this up to education.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    OMFG.
    The gods must have been shining on me today.

    Proves if you fire enough groups and sent down enough lead the odds are……

    Don’t think I should touch anything now.
    I did clean it and put it away.
    Maybe I shouldn’t have cleaned it.
    Thanks for the help.

    I don’t know why the receiver never blued properly.
    I scratched it back with the same emery cloth and did every thing the same.
    Could it be a heat thing and thicker metal while using the steam?
    Anyway rough enough for gumberment work.
    Next time hopefully I will get one to work properly for me.
    Cheers
    Bruce
    Last edited by barrabruce; 08-15-2021 at 01:55 AM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrabruce View Post
    Well still having troubles.
    Made a steam tube up and seemed to be going good with the first few coats.
    Althou the breach end wasn’t keeping up.
    Got to a stage where it started to darken up good.
    Me thinking yeah it’ll be right.It’s catching up, it’ll be alright.
    Ha the last time swabbing and steaming and I lost most of the dark colour.
    Just the thick part of the barrel at the receiver end.
    I don’t think it will rust anyway and I doubt I’ll get inundated by people wanting work done.

    I used a soft cast bullet tapped into the muzzle and a well fired case with some ptfe tape wrapped around it to seal the bore.
    After the 4 or five days of daubing and steaming it seemed to have survived.

    Maybe it help clean the barrel.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Took it down the range for a play and see If I wrecked and thing.
    Still working up a load at this moment.
    Apart from being mostly gusty and raining and only three of us stupid enough to show up. I put my faith in my one surviving beaten up wonky ‘ol wind flag.
    I’ve been working up a load and thought I would shoot a few anyway at different distances to work out a velocity curve by drop at distance.
    Sent 3 down at 100 yards after playing at 50 sighting in and could see a hole but no others.
    Dang looks like not even on target.
    Yep must have gone through side ways as I was walking up.
    Oops chalk this up to education.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    OMFG.
    The gods must have been shining on me today.

    Proves if you fire enough groups and sent down enough lead the odds are……

    Don’t think I should touch anything now.
    I did clean it and put it away.
    Maybe I shouldn’t have cleaned it.
    Thanks for the help.

    I don’t know why the receiver never blued properly.
    I scratched it back with the same emery cloth and did every thing the same.
    Could it be a heat thing and thicker metal while using the steam?
    Anyway rough enough for gumberment work.
    Next time hopefully I will get one to work properly for me.
    Cheers
    Bruce
    Looks like it was sanded too fine.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  15. #55
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    I just slow rust blued my barrel for a Blunderbuss I am building.
    I used Doc Hawkens rust bluing , and it came out looking great.
    Since I wanted a more Matt finish , I bead Blasted the metal and left it rough.
    The barrel finished out nice with only 4 coats of finish.
    The finish also looks very durable.
    I had Doc Hawkins himself do a couple of Thompson Center barrels for me along with a couple of locks.
    They came out great and sold me on his formula to use.
    I do slow rust a bunch of barrels , and now mostly Muzzleloaders
    Last edited by LAGS; 08-15-2021 at 04:37 PM.

  16. #56
    Boolit Buddy Theditchman's Avatar
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    I have put some for sale on here today....A super deal for site members only...Strictly limited supply

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    Looks like it was sanded too fine.
    Probably
    I will look into better degreasing methods as well.

    Well at least I can always start all over again.
    Or try just that small section and blend it in.

    Thanks every one.

    I may leave it for a bit till I get some time to do it properly.

    I would buy some Theditchman but getting it across the big pond may prove more trouble than it’s worth.

    I can get beechwood Casey touch up blue if worst comes to worse.
    Ha

  18. #58
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    If the frame was previously (color) case hardened, rust bluing it will usually result in a blotchy , uneven blued finish. The rust blue will also wear easily from most case hardened surfaces.

    One way to get around the problem is to etch the surfaces before applying the first coating of rusting soln.
    A very weak acid/water soln applied to the warm metal surfaces will etch the metal. It gives a better surface for the rust to form and attach.

    Nitric used to be the choice, but hydrochloric will work and is available as muriatic acid.

    The metal must be clean of all oil, grease and finger prints before etching. Acids will not remove oil.

    I think you are having problems getting the surfaces clean .
    Soap, hot water are good for initial cleaning. But followup must be done do remove any and all residue. Some cleaning liquids will leave a film on the surface after they evaporate. Even the swab/cloth you use can leave behind residue from what it was washed in. Some clean paper products have ink, perfume, even soap in them.

    If you are slow rust bluing, apply the soln with the metal at room temp.
    Express bluing, the metal must be hot,,at least boiling water hot (212F)
    The two rusting solns are NOT interchangeable as a rule.
    They are specific for their Slow or Express type applications.

    If Slow (Cold) rust bluing,,let the part rust. In a less than humid/warm condition it may take 24hrs or more to develope a coating of rust.
    Yes you can speed it up with a 'Damp Cabinet', but it will work just the same on it's own, in it's own time.
    Some slow rust in winter I leave to rust for over 24hrs at a time. Low humidity and temp at 70*F in the shop.

    If the first coating doesn't show much rusting action, don't be shy about applying another coating right over it after a time to get it going.
    This is a one time thing on that first cycle. Don't do it after the boiling/bluing has begun as the second applications then will start to remove color.

    When applying the soln, a patch dampened with the stuff is plenty to apply it. Don't go over any application already on the part. Don't scrubb the application on. Just swipe it up and down the part and done.
    Any slight misses will be covered up in later applications.

    As far as plugging the bore,,,You can if you want to but I find it completely un-necessary when rust bluing. Only for damascus finishing as the bbls must be dunked into an etchant with every cycle and the bores must be protected.

    The only thing the bore(s) are subjected to during rust bluing is boiling water. Run a clean dry patch through the bore after each cycle if you want to, but I don't even do that as the hot metal drys almost instantly once pulled from the tank.

    Lastly,,the tank,,I think a water tank would do you better than the steam pipe thing. The looks of the results say to me that you are not getting enough boiling water/steam contact to the metal.
    Also make sure when using a water tank that the water is distilled or at least rain water.
    NO oil in/on the water is acceptable. That will blemish the finish.
    If you see any oil slick on the water before use,,dump it and clean the tank.
    If the parts are already in the tank and boiling and the water looks suspect,,,turn the heat way up and get the tank to a rolling boil. Then pull the parts out. The rolling boil will break up any oil slick on the surface so the part(s) won't be as likely to drag and attach oil to them as they are removed from the tank.
    Dump that water after the it cools down.

  19. #59
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    I used Herters Belgian blue back in 1958 when I re blued my grandfathers Stevens 20 gauge and it still looks good today. I used a copper gutter with patches on the ends soldered and he had a gas double hot plate to boil the water. The entire bluing operation only took an hour or so to put 5 or 6 coats on. I bought some of the same stuff probably 40 years later from Champions Choice that was just called Belgian blue and was no longer connected to Herters and after silver soldering an iron front sight on a friends 1911 and ruining the blue, I reblued just the end of the slide where the sight was and it was impossible to see where one bluing met the other. Just follow the directions carefully. All it takes is to heat up the metal and immediately after taking it out of the boiling water swab some liquid on the steel and then take some fine steel wool and shine it up repeating this until satisfied with the job. Make sure and oil it heavily when finished.

  20. #60
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    Well I think I cured it.
    There was some operational errors.
    Mostly I was going to hard with the steel wool and the slopping to much liquid around washing away the soft black oxide.
    Something like that.
    With good prep and pre degrease in hot soaping dishwashing detergent ,then methylated spirits.
    Things worked better.
    After I overcome my mindset to get it done and just let it rust and place in a tube of boiling water to cook for 1/2 and hr things went as they should.
    Couldn’t even care less about oogling at it for a full day before converting and carding and by the time I finished. It hardly bring up any frog hairs of rust I could see.
    2% salmonac and water in a eye glass cleaner spray bottle.
    Enough to just moisten a cotton ball and squeezed out hard with a gloved hand.
    Real light wipe.
    Wanted a dull Matt finish and I think I achieved it by the rough filing barrel finish.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I’m happy with my progress and how it came out.
    Thanks for all the help and I have a reference place to look at if I loose my way.
    Thankyou everyone for being helpful and patient.
    Bruce

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check