What's so special about a "Keith" boolit ?

[dahermit]

you called him a pompous braggard. by the way its shows right at the bottom of your post that it was edited after my post and "NOT" was added in. Nice try though.

The edit had to do with my misspelling of the word "liar". Look up: "The Dunning-Kruger Effect."

[44MAG#1]

At what point does one become a "Braggart"? If someone does something that is, let's say, exceptional and the tell about one time is that bragging? Or does it take telling 2 times? Or 3 times? Or 4 times? Or 5 times? Just the one time or how many times? What standard sets bragging? If one does that exceptional thing does he or she keep it hid or can they mention it once, twice, three, four times? Maybe to those who can't do anything exceptional any mention of something exceptional done by someone may be considered bragging by someone who can't do something exceptional? Could that be true?
I don't know is the reason I asked. What is the standard that needs to be set to determine when talking by the "braggart" is bragging since a "braggart" does not brag 100 percent of time.

[Tar Heel]

As mentioned in the first reply, the EXCELLENT dissertation by Glen Fryxell in From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners©, Chapter 12, The Keith Semiwadcutter (SWC), absolutely explains why some folks, myself included, prefer the KT bullets for both hunting and accurate shooting. It's all spelled out in the chapter. Bottom line is the bullets perform well.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

The proof they say, is in the pudding. I shoot KTSWC bullets in 32, 38, 41, 44, and 45 calibers when hunting with my handguns. From rabbits to 400+ pounds of pissed off Russian boar, the bullets work. I once saw a guy treed by a hog shoot that hog 8x with a 44 Magnum JSP bullet. The hog attacked the bottom of that tree for several minutes while it eventually exsanguinated. I never had that problem with a KTSWC.

In the early 20th century, Elmer did all the hard work and field testing on his bullets. The data is out there and bullet molds are available with very close copies of his bullets made by RCBS and Lyman. If you wish to experience first-hand the value of a KTSWC bullet on game, be sure to get a mold which actually resembles his bullet rather than simply claims to be a KTSWC, The large grease groove is requisite on a KTSWC for the higher velocities we normally drive these to and with the slightly harder alloy. My hunting loads are cast with Lyman #2 alloy or with heat treated wheel weights if you can find non-zinc WW metal anymore.

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[Thumbcocker]

Iirc the wounded mule deer was about to escape over the ridge and Elmer shot at it with model 29 with factory loads. Brian Pearce later obtained an identical model 29 and period ammo that had been stored in a cool dry place. The result? Multiple hits on a mule deer target at 600 yards.

In Sixguns Elmer mentioned shooting at an abandoned outhouse at 500 or 600 yards (don't recall exactly) with a revolver. So he had practice. Also let's not forget that Elmer competed in military rifle matches so he probably had some experience with range estimation.

I have read that Charles Asking offered to catch a .44 bullet at 600 yards with a catchers mitt. I would have paid cash money to watch him try.

[Three44s]

I am big on the RCBS 250K and most grateful to Mr. Keith for the work he and and the books he wrote.

He was not a “God” so I do not worship him. Rather, he was a human being with an interesting storied larger than life career.

At the time he was active I was not into big bore revolvers and was toting around a .270 Win, so I was more a fan of Jack O’Conner.

Those two, Elmer and Jack were not “friends” by any stretch of the imagination but that’s their doing.

I respect and appreciate what both men did for shooting sports and hunting.

If I was forced to take sides in their dispute I would today side with Elmer however. He worked with his hands and body on the frontline as a guide and rancher and then wrote about it.

As far as boolit styles, I see the wide flat nosed slugs likely as better killers at close range with the Keith SWC close on its heels but with better long range and target capability.

The SWC being a better all around boolit.

Three44s

[Dancing Bear]

Lyman's 429421 mold is the most accurate "Keith" style bullet I have ever loaded.

my main mold for my 44 mags.

[Lloyd Smale]

At what point does one become a "Braggart"? If someone does something that is, let's say, exceptional and the tell about one time is that bragging? Or does it take telling 2 times? Or 3 times? Or 4 times? Or 5 times? Just the one time or how many times? What standard sets bragging? If one does that exceptional thing does he or she keep it hid or can they mention it once, twice, three, four times? Maybe to those who can't do anything exceptional any mention of something exceptional done by someone may be considered bragging by someone who can't do something exceptional? Could that be true?
I don't know is the reason I asked. What is the standard that needs to be set to determine when talking by the "braggart" is bragging since a "braggart" does not brag 100 percent of time.

one usually is considered a braggart when he knows more then the know it all calling him that

[Lloyd Smale]

I am big on the RCBS 250K and most grateful to Mr. Keith for the work he and and the books he wrote.

He was not a “God” so I do not worship him. Rather, he was a human being with an interesting storied larger than life career.

At the time he was active I was not into big bore revolvers and was toting around a .270 Win, so I was more a fan of Jack O’Conner.

Those two, Elmer and Jack were not “friends” by any stretch of the imagination but that’s their doing.

I respect and appreciate what both men did for shooting sports and hunting.

If I was forced to take sides in their dispute I would today side with Elmer however. He worked with his hands and body on the frontline as a guide and rancher and then wrote about it.

As far as boolit styles, I see the wide flat nosed slugs likely as better killers at close range with the Keith SWC close on its heels but with better long range and target capability.

The SWC being a better all around boolit.

Three44s

no jack occonor was a blow hole. elmer was jeans and work clothes. Jack a tweed vest pipe smoking yuppy of the day.. Very proud of himself. Elmer? He told it like it is and some cant take that. What he was was one of the most knowledgeable sixgun and casting expert of his time. He got smith to make then 44 mag n frame. What more needs to be said. He may not have the technical expertise and equipment
that we are lucky to have today in bullet casting but he was THE MAN back then. I dont know a single EXPERIENCED sixgun shooter that doesnt think the same. If you doubt it ask John Linebaugh or hamilton bowen or paco kelly what there opinion of him was. I have met people lucky enough to be able to call him friend and they had nothing but good to say about his character and honesty. They will all tell you if he said it take it to the bank.

[Tar Heel]

I don't know a single EXPERIENCED sixgun shooter that doesn't think the same.

Thank you very much!

[onelight]

no jack occonor was a blow hole. elmer was jeans and work clothes. Jack a tweed vest pipe smoking yuppy of the day.. Very proud of himself. Elmer? He told it like it is and some cant take that. What he was was one of the most knowledgeable sixgun and casting expert of his time. He got smith to make then 44 mag n frame. What more needs to be said. He may not have the technical expertise and equipment
that we are lucky to have today in bullet casting but he was THE MAN back then. I dont know a single EXPERIENCED sixgun shooter that doesnt think the same. If you doubt it ask John Linebaugh or hamilton bowen or paco kelly what there opinion of him was. I have met people lucky enough to be able to call him friend and they had nothing but good to say about his character and honesty. They will all tell you if he said it take it to the bank.

Good Post !

[robertbank]

I think we all have our opinions and truthfully most of my memories from the late 50's and 60's tend to be better when they relate to things I did either at home or at school. As a young lad I enjoyed Jack Connor and his columns on hunting with his beloved Winchester Model 70 in .270 caliber. I never really was an early fan of Elmer Keith's writing mostly because I did not understand a lot of what he routinely discussed in his columns. Later in life, when I got involved in competitive handgun shooting I took more of an interest in his writings. In Hell I Was Their he talks about shooting at a shed at around 500- 600 yards. A friend gave me a copy of the book so I can't quote exactly what he said but I do remember reading about it and I think when he discussed hitting the shed he mentioned the deer shot. I admit I could be wrong if the two subjects were connected.

We are all burdened to some extent by our past experiences. Larry, you identify O'Connor as a pipe smoking blow hole while good old Elmer wore jeans, kind of a working class everyday type of guy. What is funny as a young teen all I saw a in O'Connor was a guy lucky enough to be able to travel and write about his hunting experiences. I viewed Elmer in the same way. Both made their way through life writing and we enjoyed what they had to say and we had our favourites.

I do believe Elmer on occasion embellished some of his tales. That doesn't make him a liar, it makes him human and there is nothing wrong with that. His claim about shooting a deer and having it run off after his bullet removed four inches of the deer's spine cannot be true. If that were indeed possible we would have nobody assigned to wheel chairs after having suffering their spinal cords cut. I have seen a buck crawl using it's front legs about 15 yards before by buddy and I reached the Buck. I put a 357 bullet in the Bucks ear to end the issue. Did Elmer lie in his account or did he just embellish his story for readers that would come after him. I don't really care one way or another. I enjoyed his book, I recently bought his book Sixguns and am enjoying the read. He was a straight shooter by any definition. He lived a life through a time that is now gone forever. Just be happy both he and O'Connor left us with stories of their day that many now will never enjoy or be subjected to.

Take Care

Bob

[44MAG#1]

I would still like to know the test one can apply to someone to determine when that person becomes a braggart.
What about a "Liar"? If someone doesn't tell 100 percent the truth is he a "Liar"? What if he or she tells 98 percent truth, 90 percent truth, 85 percent truth?
What is the litmus test for being a "Liar"?

[cwtebay]

Has anyone ever used a Keith style bullet in an autoloader? Success? Experience?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[dahermit]

At what point does one become a "Braggart"? If someone does something that is, let's say, exceptional and the tell about one time is that bragging? Or does it take telling 2 times? Or 3 times? Or 4 times? Or 5 times? Just the one time or how many times? What standard sets bragging? If one does that exceptional thing does he or she keep it hid or can they mention it once, twice, three, four times? Maybe to those who can't do anything exceptional any mention of something exceptional done by someone may be considered bragging by someone who can't do something exceptional? Could that be true?
I don't know is the reason I asked. What is the standard that needs to be set to determine when talking by the "braggart" is bragging since a "braggart" does not brag 100 percent of time.

Having likely read every article that Elmer Keith ever wrote in the gun magazines in the middle-late sixties into the seventies, I noted that he gratuitously used the pronoun, "I" in his writings where as the other authurs of the time did not. In short Elmer was always the center of his written endeavors. Compare his writing to O'Conner, Venturino, Askins, Cooper, and even that good gun-fiction that Skelton wrote... well, maybe not Cooper.

[44MAG#1]

If "I" did something I did it. It surely wasn't "We" did it. Now if two or more of us did something together "We" did it.

[robertbank]

Has anyone ever used a Keith style bullet in an autoloader? Success? Experience?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

If you are talking about lead semi wadcutters (LSWC) as a group...yes. 200 gr LSWC run through my 45acp semi autos like pop through a goose. I use similar styles in my 9mm and 40 cal semi autos.. If they work in handguns there is no reason, other than design issues with a firearm. My Ruger PCC has no issues with LSWC'S.

The biggest feature I find with Keith style bullets is they work for me in the guns i own and the needs i encounter.

Take Care
Bob

[Lloyd Smale]

Thank you very much!

you hit on the real cast bullet EXPERT Glen Fryxell he and rob applegate were the real cast bullet gurus. I had the privilege of knowing Rob and he was a cast bullet and gun SCIENTIST. Back when this forum was in its infancy we had our own expert here. May still remember Felix. I can say that with no exception all of them respected Elmer Kieth.

[Lloyd Smale]

Having likely read every article that Elmer Keith ever wrote in the gun magazines in the middle-late sixties into the seventies, I noted that he gratuitously used the pronoun, "I" in his writings where as the other authurs of the time did not. In short Elmer was always the center of his written endeavors. Compare his writing to O'Conner, Venturino, Askins, Cooper, and even that good gun-fiction that Skelton wrote... well, maybe not Cooper.

he was writing ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES. Not like today when the experts here do an internet search and come back using knowlege that should use us and we but rarely do.

[Bent Ramrod]

I took a writing class while I worked in a Gummint Research Lab. The instructor told us to avoid using the passive voice to the greatest extent possible.

I objected, pointing out that if I wrote a science paper in the active voice it would be “I mixed this and I boiled that and I poured something else and I tested the result and I found that....and it was all about I,I,I, and Me, Me, Me!” So I’d use the passive voice exclusively, where mixes were made and tests were done and these results were found. All about the actual process, not me.

He countered that he saw my point, but there was danger there too, because “Mistakes were made and bad judgements were exercised, and disasters resulted” left the reader with the impression that a coverup was happening and the actual people who made the mistakes and bad decisions were laying low till things cooled off.

I could see his point, too.

Keith was careful to explain that what he was describing was what he saw and thought was going on, and that there might be a lot of variance between his experiences and those of others, but all he could write on were his own. It doesn’t come across as braggadocio or self-absorption to me, just the basic weaknesses of the written word.

[robertbank]

he was writing ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES. Not like today when the experts here do an internet search and come back using knowlege that should use us and we but rarely do.

Larry you like I, often leave out words we think we wrote but didn't hence you will find me editing a post I make immediately after I post it. Your post needs some words to make some sense.

Take Care

Bob