Wow, great recovery.
It shows the seperation line pretty clearly.
I haven't been able to recover any of mine. I over lap a tad on mine.
The rifle I have is not something that is known for MOA, but with patching it sure comes close!
There are some patchers here that sure give me something to aspire to.
Docone as near as I can tell if a person pays particular heed to the wisdom/experience shared by Mr's Wasserburger, Danielson, and Mulhern (fpm111) you can get a quick handle on how to make this paper patching thing work and work very well.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Originally Posted by montana_charlie
Hey Charlie,
I'm twoguns, and i stretched my cases with your rig, but I'm not Arnie Moos.
I was reading this post on your journey into paperpatching and I just had to chuckel a wee bit. We have gone down very similar paths in the past few months and bumped into some of the same problems, re: bulging cases from too much compression, cartridge OAL woes and such.
While waiting for spring, I have loaded up a progression of different powders (GOEX cartridge, and Swiss1.5 ) with increasing amounts of compression. The paper I chose was a little thicker than suggested by Dan T because his 8# paper with the .454 Money bullet was REALLY loose in my fireformed brass. So I'm using 9# fidelity. We will see.
Speaking of brass, I finally found the EXACT cartridge length to fit my Winchester Creedmore chamber. After lots of playing around it is 2.435max depending on the cartridge rim thickness (.065-.068). Any longer and the mouth of the case starts to pinch down when it is chambered.
I also bought several expanders from BACO to see how much I could expand the case mouth and not have chambering issues. I found that an as-bought .461 no-step expander polished a wee bit in a drill press does the job on the annealed Starline cases. My .454 PPBs wet wrapped with 9# paper are a tight thump press fit in the cases. That may be a problem (neck tension) but won't know till I fire them. It may not be a problem because I'm loading the COAL to kiss the leade anyway.
Your post on the use of rubber roller got me thinking and I believe I will try that too. Several years ago, I bought a 2 inch wide hard rubber roller for matting my photos and while I can't remember where i got mine, I did find this picture of, and link to some rollers that may satisfy you.
http://www.dickblick.com/products/bl...roller/#photos
Don, your picture nicely reinforces your advice to eliminate the gap. As I said, I will try to do that using a third pass with the roller...to stretch the paper a bit more.
And...Mister twoguns...greetings, Ken!
Yessir, I got the two of you mixed up.
Your were the 'guinea pig' for the 'adjustable punch' because you needed two very different lengths of stretch from your various cases. Your need made me (finally) finish designing that tool.
But, both you and Arnie Moos bought stretchers during the same month, so I suppose that is how I got the two of you confused.
(The two of you confused...? Obviously it is I who is the confused one...)
Looking back through my notes, it appears that Arnie Moos (strangely) just calls himself 'arnie', and it was Arnie who sent me a batch of sample bullets to try.
Anyway, it's good to hear of another BP shooter who is working on patched-to-groove loads...though mine are a few thousandths under yours.
If our results are not parallel, perhaps we decide who has the better approach...
CM
Last edited by montana_charlie; 02-24-2009 at 01:09 PM.
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
No problem, Charlie!
Can't wait to find out. BTW, what rifle are you shooting?
Charlie I am working also at this time with a patched to groove 40 cal bullet. So far I can tell you it seems to work much better with smokeless powder in the 405 than it has with black in the 40-65.
I'm getting pretty well under the notion that with bp , the bore + -.002 is surely the better way, while smokeless can probably go either way but groove diameter is better.
More shooting needs done, but the evidence I've gathered so far.......
Long range rules, the rest drool.
It's a 45/90...if that's what you're asking.
If you really mean "what rifle", it's a Pedersoli Billy Dixon that was rechambered by Lee Shaver to .45/90. I tell you all of that because it means the rifle does not have the same chamber dimensions (in the throat) as one straight from the factory.
I think the Shiloh throat (what there is of it) probably works best with patched-to-bore, and Pedersoli throats (probably) would do better with patched-to-groove.
Since mine is midway between them, I spent a long time thinking about which way to go.
In the end, I settled on a compromise that is like a little of each.
I guess that's why I used 'my way' in the thread title.
I chose this size because Arnie has had good luck with it...and I don't even know what brand rifle he shoots it in. I didn't ask because it doesn't matter.
He has what he has, and I have what I have. It will work for me, or it won't.
If it doesn't, I can always switch to a .446" bullet and follow the herd...
CM
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
Charlie I think its more of a rediscovering what every 10 year old kid already knew 130 years ago, than it's a following the herd today.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Yes, I was trying to figure how the dimensions of YOUR chamber, freebore, leade, bore and groove compared to mine. IOW, did we have the same or different, because at the end of the day that will be important to know when we both get some results.
I read and reread Dan's adviceto me and any other topic where he gave pertinent info and I think-believe-feel like I'm heading down the road to PPB nirvana. 'Course, I could be hosed. We will see.
There are a couple of things that I'm not totally comfortable with in my setup.
1. I wish my brass was a wee bit thicker at the mouth so that I would not have ANY change in diameter from the case mouth into the .250" long freebore on my rifle which is the same as groove dia. at .461". I've already spent enough $$ on this brass so I'm choosing not to deal with that issue until I absolutely have no other options. Thicker brass matching my chamber to freebore step thickness would allow thinner paper to be used and no bullet/paper deformation as the shot goes off. Its only about .002" of a step right now. I don't know if that is enough to worry about, but it IS there.
2. My compression die is set to have the bullet resting .500" deep into the case mouth which limits the amount of powder I can load. My COAL is set so that the paper wrap is just engraved by the rifling. I have to push the case with my thumb just a wee bit (like a 1/16" before closing the action. I have been using bore pigs, but am thinking about the wiping routine.
At least one important thing has been taken care of and that is no more lead in the chamber nor paper rings, thanks to your help with my brass length.
Freebore - 0.100" long, .460" dia.
Leade - 1.5 degrees
Bore - .450"
Groove - .460" at the chamber and tapering down to .4575" at the muzzle.
(I showed you mine. Are you gonna show me yours?)
Your use of the .454" bullet makes me think I read that post, too, but I didn't remember that it was you he was speaking to.I read and reread Dan's advice to me...
The advice he gave you(?) was the thing that first started me thinking about patching to groove with a BP load.
As for your discomfort...There are a couple of things that I'm not totally comfortable with in my setup.
1. I wish my brass was a wee bit thicker at the mouth so that I would not have ANY change in diameter from the case mouth into the .250" long freebore...
Its only about .002" of a step right now. I don't know if that is enough to worry about, but it IS there.
2. My compression die is set to have the bullet resting .500" deep into the case...
paper wrap is just engraved by the rifling.
#1:
Could you not size the neck down 2 thousandths to match up with the freebore ID?
It might require one of those bushing-type neck sizing dies, but I think you could do it with a regular f/l die..backed out of the press an appropriate amount to just 'kiss' the neck lightly.
#2:
That is what it is, Ken.
Your fatter bullet just won't go as far into the leade as leaner ones. I don't remember which specific bullet design Dan told you to use.
Are you pushing a 'blunt' nose into an 'high angle' leade?
A number of Kal-Max buyers have written up nice 'testimonials' about how well the tool worked for them, and how easy it is to use. But your comment is the first (public) one which says stretching the case actually eliminated the problem it was built to cure. Thanks for that...At least one important thing has been taken care of and that is no more lead in the chamber nor paper rings, thanks to your help with my brass length.
CM
EDIT...
I couldn't contain my curiosity, so I Googled until I found your conversation with Dan.
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic....9e26ab1d9695e1
I see that you are using a .454" Money bullet from a Paul Jones mould, and I seem to remember you are shooting a .45/90.
So, going back to your #2...
You should be able to get at least 80 grains compressed under that bullet. That should be enough to make the bullet go too fast to see...
Last edited by montana_charlie; 02-25-2009 at 12:48 AM.
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
Freebore - 0.250" long, .461" dia.
Leade - 1.5 degrees
Bore - .451"
Groove - .461"
Well......yes..... (now, I might show some ignorance)...but, I thought that as soon as the light goes on inside the case and the bullet gets thumped in the ****, that the annealed case wall has little choice but to expand out to the chamber dimension. I don't think sizing the brass at the mouth would do anything to save the bullet from making that 0.002" step transition.
Now, considering how deep I have the bullet seated in the case, it seems reasonable to me that the bump up begins when the light goes on (and ends 10 or so inches up-barrel as Mann proved and the lead pushes the case mouth against the chamber mouth.
Your welcome!
Yep, I can get at least 80.
But I want more, more, more so I can achieve that magical amount of powder and compression that finds me the Holy Grail - a clean burn.
A question from the Peanut Gallery.
To get that clean burn, I have read about duplex loads. A little smokeless under the black powder.
Is that a reality, or just fiction?
It can be a reality, but I think of it as a crutch. If you want to avoid fouling by using smokeless in a duplex, why not just use all smokeless? But yes, it can be done and I'll move on down the firing line a few extra benches if you are going to do it.
The NRA now requires 100% bp in cartridge rifle competitions. I believe this is new this year for Creedmoor/midrange shooters. Been that way, always, for silhouette.
Brent
Docone the Lyman manuals as late as the 1950's contained duplex data for some of the bp cartridges they still listed data for.
Having tried it tho. I concur with Brent either do it with smokeless or do it with black. Whats the point in trying to elimate fouling with a small charge of smokeless when you could leave the black out and not have any bp fouling to mess with? Becaus even with the smokeless at the bottom of the case you still have the bp residue to clean from your cases and gun.
I'm also not convinced the pressure generated by the duplex are all that safe in the bp cartridges.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
That is almost a Pedersoli chamber...
Freebore - 0.250" long, .461" dia.
Leade - 1.5 degrees
Bore - .451"
Groove - .461"
You may be entirely correct. I can't claim to know exactly how things happen in there. But, I have yet to read a 'sequence of events' from a credible writer (one who claims to actually know) which describes the progression in detail.Well......yes..... (now, I might show some ignorance)...but, I thought that as soon as the light goes on inside the case and the bullet gets thumped in the ****, that the annealed case wall has little choice but to expand out to the chamber dimension. I don't think sizing the brass at the mouth would do anything to save the bullet from making that 0.002" step transition.
So, I like to believe there is room for a little fudging...if fudging would help in some way.
Well, you could work if from this end...Yep, I can get at least 80.
But I want more, more, more so I can achieve that magical amount of powder and compression that finds me the Holy Grail - a clean burn.
'They' say (and quite a few 'they's' agree) that Goex likes a compression of .385".
I have to believe that number depends somewhat on the total height of a stack, and that it would be different for a 45/70 than it would be for a 45/110. But, the one time I proposed that, 'they' told me I was wrong.
Anyway, choosing .350" as a desirable amount of compression (and you may substitute .385" if you wish) you subtract that number from the .500" seating depth and you get the distance below the case mouth a charge would have to reach.
So, you droptube powder into the case to fill it to .15" below the mouth (with op wad in place). Then, packing the top of the wad down to .500" will result in .350" of powder compression.
If .350" can be trusted to cause a 'clean burn', the amount of powder required to get it is figured for you when you see how much fills the case to .15" from the mouth.
I wouldn't be surprised if that powder charge exceeds 85 grains, and that amount of compression shouldn't bulge a case.
Helpful...? Anything there you had not already considered...?
CAUTION, Hassgropper!
Reality and fiction are but two faces of a three-sided coin. The third is only visible to those fortunate ones who are not 'trapped in their own ignorance'.
FPMIII (and I) recently received a warning about allowing a hint of 'BP predjudice' to invade a smokless PP discussion. Take care that the arbiter does not cast one upon thee as well, for doing just the opposite.
As for the meat of your question...I cannot answer you for I am trapped in ignorance (on that subject) which is virtually boundless. And, to 'say what I think' about duplexing might earn me another warning...!
CM
Last edited by montana_charlie; 02-25-2009 at 02:07 PM.
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
Its a Winchester SS 45-90 with a Badger barrell.
I remember that thread. I have had the occasion to pull bullets and compressed powder loads. What I SAW surprised me. The powder under the wad was very tightly compact and lesser so as I dug through the powder stack with a dental pick. The powder near the primer was loose. Your proposition was right on. Some day when I get bored I might try a two or three stage compression.
Yuppers, got that covered. I have a 5 step progression of "GOEX -Cartridge" loads on both sides of that seemingly KW magical number. IJust don't know if GOEX-Cartridge will fit the bill. Time will tell.
I've got some pretty good groups going with my Old West pp bullet ( 550 grs patched to bore size) using 80 grs of Cartridge in 2.3 inch cases. .030 fiber wad, and 1/8th inch lubed wool felt between the bullet and powder.
I don't think Cartridge needs alot of compression to work well.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
You know, Charlie,
If it weren't for the BPers, we would not have the expertise we now have.
There is a lot of finite fact that just plain works. The fundamentals of those processes give us a foundation to experiment and survive to tell about it.
A lot of priceless information from the BP school.
I have no clue why, but, there is no rifle more beautiful than a cared for BPCR. The lines, the style, the sound, the performance. Nothing compares to it.
Even though I patch smokeless, I still have a georgeous photo of a 50/90 Sharps on my desktop.
Someday.....
Well, you've done it now, Don.
You finally mentioned something that fit's right in my plan, but which I have been trying to ignore.
In the first trial loads, I had a 1/8th-inch grease cookie. I wasn't set up very well to produce discs of lube in that thickness, so it was a real hassle getting the loads built. Plus (just to use up some of it), I made the cookies from some homemade lube which I modified to be as soft as I felt a cookie should be.
I do have a roll of 1/8th-inch felt, though. All it needs is to be saturated with lube (of some kind) and run through the wad punch.
I found myself thinking that since the thickness was already there, I wished I had planned on felt wads...instead of mashing lube to get it thin enough.
But, I was determined to get those loads finished, so I kept mashing and cookie-cutting.
Judging by what I could see in the bore, those cookies had little, if any, effect.
Do you produce your own lubed wads, or do you use Ox Yoke (or something like them)?
If you make your own...tell me about lube.
TIA, FWIW, OMG, LOL (etc.)
CM
Last edited by montana_charlie; 03-06-2011 at 05:14 PM.
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
Charlie I'm to lazy to go to all the trouble of making my own wads. So for the most part I purchase them from Harlan and Wendy Sage www.sageoutfitters.com
I ordered some stuff from BACO here a while back and part of that order was some 40 cal lubed felt wads for the .400 pp project. They work well also.
When working with this paper patch stuff I always keep coming back to the instructions found in some of the ancient Ideal/Lyman manuals regarding bp charges." The powder should not be compressed, but the bullet and powder charge should be in firm contact"
Long range rules, the rest drool.
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