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Thread: Case Separation -- Straightwall/PC'd

  1. #1
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Case Separation -- Straightwall/PC'd

    Anyone else experience this?


    Bullets are actually high-gloss/beautiful finish)

    38-55 Uberti HiWall
    Three cases separated.

    First one left the separated piece in the barrel/near muzzle (fully rifled BTW)
    Bullet printed normally in 1.5" group at 100.

    Second and third had the case piece exit the muzzle along w/bullet/not found
    Both bullets printed normally in 1.5" group at 100.

    - Bullet is Accurate 38-320E pure lead (330gr actual) Sized 0.380.
    - PC is Eastwood 5:1 Appliance White/Mirror Blue (450 Flow+30min at 400)
    -- (Never any issue with any Eastwood/Coating -- perfect bullets.)

    Starline case -- (deliberate High[er] Pressure for Pure lead/Plain Base trials)
    AA2495/28.2gr (Full case under bullet)
    102% fill/96% burn
    Burn_Ba = 0.403 adjusted
    QuickLoad32” = 21,451psi/1,623fps(1,624±03 actual)
    Redding Profile/taper crimp case mouth to 0.392"/ OAL: 2.56"

    Barrel spotless on dry patch.



    Thoughts ?
    Last edited by mehavey; 05-15-2021 at 07:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    DHDeal's Avatar
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    Did the cases separate at the bullet base? Looks like it was close to that.

    I have a habit of running the sized cases of my 45/70 and 40/65 BPCR's on a brush chucked up into my drill and polishing the inside. Whether it's necessary or not is another argument but I do have very smooth seating of my bullets and I suspect a very smooth release of those bullets. This is for GG bullets as the PP bullets aren't in the case far enough to matter.

    My SWAG is those pretty PC'd bullets are holding onto the case walls and not wanting to let go. Having pulled PC bullets and regular lubed bullets before, the lubed bullets always come out without too many whacks. The PC'd rascals take some extra whacks before they decide to come loose. If my cases have been cleaned with SS pins or freshly annealed, they are even more grabby than usual.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    GARD72977's Avatar
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    Measure the rim thickness on the cases that seperated. I bet its a headspace issue. Its either the gun or the brass out of spec

  4. #4
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Has had no problem with thousands of rounds of BP and/or classically-lubed bullets.

    That, and the fact the normal case stretch will cause separation near the base -- and not effectively create a
    bonded jacket around the bullet itself, carried all the way through the barrel/out the muzzle/and far downrange.

    (Note the rifling on the separated neck section in the OP.)

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    TexasMac has some interesting reading on straight-wall case separations
    http://www.texas-mac.com/Case_Stretc...PC_Rifles.html

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    See also thread on bullets bonding to case walls, esp Larry Gibson's reply re a .45-70 separation with a commercial cast bullet with hard lube, then tumble lubed. One other respondent mentions PC bullets bonding. I am running some tests on lubed bullets and will add to the thread when I have the information. I have experienced bonding sufficient to increase velocity and change POI. So far no neck separations, but trying to head off the problem before it gets to that.

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-in-case-necks

    Test for bonding is to reseat bullets another .010" or so - 1/8 turn on 7/8x14 die. A bonded bullet will resist and then make an audible crack as it lets go. Prior to reseating, bonded bullet may be near impossible to pull. Bonding can go all the way from just a little resistance to something a lot more. For a really good illustration, load some bare unlubed cast bullets in a dummy case, then after a week (or even a day or two) try to pull one, and try to reseat some.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 05-16-2021 at 02:31 AM.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    This is one of the more intriguing threads that I have read.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Sasquatch-1's Avatar
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    How old was the brass?
    A vote for anyone other then the conservative candidates is a vote for the liberal candidates.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Brand new brass...

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    Okay - let me start by saying that I'm stupid when it comes to powder coating and only slightly less so when it comes to the 38-55 so I have a couple of questions/thoughts.

    I am of the understanding from some other sites that starline brass in the 38.55 is relatively thin-walled.

    Concerning the 38.55 I found this comment in another forum

    "The 38-55 has about the worst variation in groove diameters across all the different rifles ever manufactured.
    It was originally supposed to be a real .38 cal with a .379 to .380 groove diameter. But they have been manufactured at .375 up to about .383 groove diameters. The SAAMI drawing permits the chamber to be about .394 maximum which means that some companies have manufactured rifles with small chambers and large bores that are not really compatible with shooting groove diameter or larger grease groove bullets."

    A quick view of a couple of old loading manuals - not by any chance the definitive sources - shows a bullet diameter of 3775.

    When one sizes down to .380 and then powder coats what's the increase in bullet diameter? Is it significant with reference to the case mouth diameter/chamber size and groove diameter.

    Could it be a combination of thin case wall, increased case neck tension and friction, and max chamber/min bore?

    I really don't know but am interested in what the experts have to say.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

    Kraschenbirn's Avatar
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    I'm also using Starline brass in a Taylor & Co 38-55 Highwall (mfg'd by Uberti) and, after several thousand rounds, have yet to see anything even resembling the OP's case separations. I load, essentially, to duplicate original BP ballistics and don't powder-coat - tried PC but found my 'as cast' (.381) boolits, pan-lubed with Emmert's, to be more accurate. Cases are neck-sized just enough to hold boolit in place with a very light taper-crimp to remove any flare of case mouth. Some of my cases have been reloaded 10-12 times and, other than an occasional split mouth, have yet to see any significant failures.

    Off the cuff, which length Starline brass are you using...the 'short' (2.080") or the 'long' (2.125")? The chamber of mine is cut for the 'short' cases and it's possible that 'long' cases might cause a significant increase in chamber pressures. Just a thought.

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  12. #12
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Long brass... and like you have had no issue with anything til that deep-seated/PC'd shank of the ACC38-320E.

    I sized/ALOX'd eight of them last night/heat-dried overnite -- and will shoot them this PM and see that reduces the
    PC deathgrip on the brass.

    FWIW: with 102% fill, I have no need of a crimp either -- I'll back the Redding Profile die way off

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Win94ae's Avatar
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    Too tight of a fit in the chamber?

  14. #14
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    Second and third had the case piece exit the muzzle along w/bullet/not found
    Both bullets printed normally in 1.5" group at 100.
    This is amazing.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    What I noticed is the base is where the case failed. Had trouble in 30/30 with radial neck cracks. I was using light bullets that has base in the neck with unique powder. My thought is a stress area that firing expanded the neck below the base. Other question for your brass, was it factory annealed after final forming? My experience with PC - I seat deeper to pull bullets - not much different than jacketed. I don't crimp, just remove the bell, even for jacketed.
    edit: I was using sierra HJ in the 30/30 unannealed cases. IMHO it was the fast powder (unique) with a fast pressure rise that did it. Loaded in 300BO cases (or even 110 jacketed) with necks turned to 10 thous and SLOWER powder, no problems. Never used the powder you do, possibility it is really compressed and spikes? You indicate 102% fill (QL?) might really be a compressed load.
    Been playing with 4227 and msrp in BO as that's what i got. Previously with srp I got crumbs left in the barrel. NOT with the msrp (CCI). Actually 98% fill and good accuracy. IMHO I got better burn as bore is clean. QL (GRT) says burnout after the muzzle. Didn't see it.
    I have not seen a difference between PC,HiTek, BLL or jacketed as to real neck tension - aka, left loaded and pulled much later. HF red or Smoke's red. Stuck a lot of GC when pulling though, 308 & 30/30.
    Last edited by popper; 05-18-2021 at 02:44 PM.
    Whatever!

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Post #12 interests me. The word "deathgrip " makes me wonder that if the PC makes the boolit stick to the brass to the point that causes pressure spikes. I have flattened primers on brass that fired PC coated Boolits. Anyone else noticing this on their brass?

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Win94ae View Post
    Too tight of a fit in the chamber?
    my thought as well. That's assuming my understanding of brass to bullet grip and release are true. I have been under the impression that the expanding powder/gases causes the brass case to swell/expand away from the bullet rather than the powder/gases merely overcoming the friction grip. Or are both of those things working together? If yes to both, which is the dominate factor, case swelling or breaking the friction grip? I am inclined to give the nod to case expansion. Especially when considering the old varnished military ammo.
    “Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” Ronald Reagan


  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master

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    On the separations I have seen you can see the burned ring where it failed on the inside edge.This isnt apparent on these case. What Im seeing is a "clean" fracture. Im thinking that the pc coating may ave increased loaded round dia to where the case couldnt release the bullet. 38-55 brass is on the thin side

  19. #19
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    All were sized [after PC] to my standard 0.380" for that rifle.

    What may be happening is that
    - Extra-soft pure lead is obturating too well, too quickly.
    - PC is holding it locked during that primer ignition/pressure build-up instant before static friction is overcome.
    (Maybe vice-versa)

    I've got some ALOX-over-PC coated loads of the same bullet to try, but my HighWall came down lame.
    [It's at the vet's]

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    Maybe leaving the burnt powder residue in the case neck or dipping in powdered graphite might cut down on the bonding.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check