Black Powder/BP Substitute Loads for .38 Special?

[VariableRecall]

In this day and age where powder is scarce, I'd been thinking that there may come a time where a preferable pistol powder may not be available. I know that Cowboy action people use Black Powder substitutes for matches to stay in-period. However, my revolver is a K-Frame S&W 10-5. Not exactly Cowboy material, but it would certainly have different outcomes if I ran Black Powder through it.

What kind of charges/boolits would be best for Black Powder .38 Special load? I've got the feeling something along the lines of Pyrodex or another smokeless BP substitute would be ideal for this situation.

What steps should I use to mitigate fouling?

[megasupermagnum]

There isn't much different to do when loading. Black powder is as idiot proof of a powder as has ever been made. Use a natural type lube can help fouling is about it, but I've shot with modern bullet lubes too. Use whatever bullet you want, and any charge of powder that will fit. There is always a warning to make sure to not have an air space, however, that has turned out to largely be bunk anyway. Plenty of original 19th century blackpowder cartridge's, I seem to remember 45-70, are found to have had airspace and never an issue.

I would not use Pyrodex, not for this, and not for anything else either unless it was the last powder ever. I used it plenty, it is available, it is inexpensive, and it works. It is also inferior, and causes rust like nothing else. Get real black powder, or 777 powder.

Your K-frame would function fine on black powder. The closest I've used is an N-frame. The one nice thing about the S&W is it is one screw to remove the cylinder. I take the cylinder off, unscrew it from the crane, and wash that off good. I then clean the barrel and inside the frame window good. Straight water is all you need, and works best. Strong chemical cleaners are not helpful here. Scrub with water, dry, and oil. Easy as can be. The only thing is it has to be done every time you shoot, and within at least a couple days. I wouldn't let a nice revolver like that K-frame go more than 12 hours if possible after shooting.

[megasupermagnum]

Dang, now you got me thinking. I'm seeing multiple reports of 20-22 gr of FFFg blackpowder producing 900-975 fps with a 158gr bullet. That's right up there with todays +p smokeless loads, even though it is a stanard pressure. Apparently, and I did not fact check this, the original 38 special load in 1899 was 21.5 gr FFFg and a 158gr bullet for 967 fps. I may have to load some, and see.

I can see it now from a big time manufacturer. The hottest standard pressure round ever created, and it gives you an escape smoke screen for self defense too!

[VariableRecall]

Dang, now you got me thinking. I'm seeing multiple reports of 20-22 gr of FFFg blackpowder producing 900-975 fps with a 158gr bullet. That's right up there with todays +p smokeless loads, even though it is a stanard pressure. Apparently, and I did not fact check this, the original 38 special load in 1899 was 21.5 gr FFFg and a 158gr bullet for 967 fps. I may have to load some, and see.

I can see it now from a big time manufacturer. The hottest standard pressure round ever created, and it gives you an escape smoke screen for self defense too!

I was somewhat inspired by my very smoky batch of HSM Cowboy Action .38 Special. It was immensely overpriced but it's been the last factory ammo I've actually manged to find. It smelled quite pleasant and I'd assume it was loaded with something non-corrosive and smoky.

I'm just thinking about BP/ BP substitutes because I've yet to see any more pistol powder in stock at any LGS I've visited so far. It may come to the point that I'm going to be scooping BP from a dipper into a funnel, but at least I can see my options with some advice from people with BP experience.

[bedbugbilly]

Just keep in mind that loading BP/BP substitutes is vastly different than loading smokeless - BP loads need to be "compresses loads" - i.e. no air space in casing. You also need to us a good BP lube to keep fouling soft.

I have loaded and shot 38 BP loads out of just about every revolver I have owned - SA and DA - including my S & W M & P revolver - all with excellent results. A good thorough cleaning afterwords and all is fine.

A warning though - once you do it, it becomes addictive.

[VariableRecall]

Just keep in mind that loading BP/BP substitutes is vastly different than loading smokeless - BP loads need to be "compresses loads" - i.e. no air space in casing. You also need to us a good BP lube to keep fouling soft.

I have loaded and shot 38 BP loads out of just about every revolver I have owned - SA and DA - including my S & W M & P revolver - all with excellent results. A good thorough cleaning afterwords and all is fine.

A warning though - once you do it, it becomes addictive.

The best lube I got is Lee Liquid Alox, which is not exactly designed for BP.
Also I don't really trust using my Lee Perfect Powder Measure for Black Powder loads. The housing is all plastic, but it generates static and I'm not going to take that risk. I do have the Lee Dipper kit, and that's worked out for me as an alternative to using powder measures.

Would a reasonable strategy for BP loads be to fill powder in the case to about the depth of the boolit, and then seat? I'm not really sure how compressible BP and BP substitutes are, so I'd want to be careful.

Also, does Triple Seven not have the same corrosive properties as standard Black powder?

[megasupermagnum]

Lee alox will not do anything for powder fouling. I've done it with no issues, but have not shot more than a couple cylinders like that. I'm guessing there is a big difference in needs between 12 rounds, and 120 rounds fired. You do not need anything fancy for BP. A 50/50 mix of beeswax and crisco, or 50/50 beeswax and olive oil works great. You can dip lube the bullets, no special equipment needed. Pan lubing works good too with no equipment.

777 is about as corrosive as blackpowder. What I've noticed with 777 in muzzleloaders, is that the fouling is much dryer making swabbing between shots much more important. This will not matter for a revolver.

Static electricity can not ignite black powder. You don't have to worry about it. That said, lee dippers work fantastically well for metering powder. 777 doesn't compress the same as black powder. There is no danger in compressing any of these, worst case is you smoosh a bullet with too much powder. The BPCR guys often use compression dies to squeeze even more powder in. Another trick is a drop tube, which lets the powder sift itself as it falls, and allows more powder in the case. You don't need either to make well functioning revolver ammo.

The air gap with black powder causing issues is a false myth. It has been debunked by every test ever conducted on it. Original BP cartridges sometimes had air space, although most were filled to the top to maximize power. Breech loading schuetzen rifles often load the bullet first, followed by a cartridge of powder, guaranteeing an air space. Seriously, you can not go wrong with black powder, it is the safest of all powders.

Real blackpowder is very compressible. I've gone so far as taking a case, scooping powder with it, leveling it off, and seating a bullet right on that. Depending on the bullet length, this may not work. Pick a powder scoop that fills to about 1/8" to the top of the case, and seat a bullet on it.

[VariableRecall]

Lee alox will not do anything for powder fouling. I've done it with no issues, but have not shot more than a couple cylinders like that. I'm guessing there is a big difference in needs between 12 rounds, and 120 rounds fired. You do not need anything fancy for BP. A 50/50 mix of beeswax and crisco, or 50/50 beeswax and olive oil works great. You can dip lube the bullets, no special equipment needed. Pan lubing works good too with no equipment.

777 is about as corrosive as blackpowder. What I've noticed with 777 in muzzleloaders, is that the fouling is much dryer making swabbing between shots much more important. This will not matter for a revolver.

Static electricity can not ignite black powder. You don't have to worry about it. That said, lee dippers work fantastically well for metering powder. 777 doesn't compress the same as black powder. There is no danger in compressing any of these, worst case is you smoosh a bullet with too much powder. The BPCR guys often use compression dies to squeeze even more powder in. Another trick is a drop tube, which lets the powder sift itself as it falls, and allows more powder in the case. You don't need either to make well functioning revolver ammo.

The air gap with black powder causing issues is a false myth. It has been debunked by every test ever conducted on it. Original BP cartridges sometimes had air space, although most were filled to the top to maximize power. Breech loading schuetzen rifles often load the bullet first, followed by a cartridge of powder, guaranteeing an air space. Seriously, you can not go wrong with black powder, it is the safest of all powders.

Real blackpowder is very compressible. I've gone so far as taking a case, scooping powder with it, leveling it off, and seating a bullet right on that. Depending on the bullet length, this may not work. Pick a powder scoop that fills to about 1/8" to the top of the case, and seat a bullet on it.

Thank you for the advice! I don't often have access to an outdoor range, but at least I may have some options if Smokeless supplies get tight!

[Gtek]

You take one of your cases with a split rim and cut it to found correct load volume length. Solder on old coat hanger handle, scoop, scrape, dump.

[ButchC]

Oh boy! A topic I have almost executed to completion. I have assembled a few rounds of .38 in Remington cases with about 16gr (20gr spout on the flask) of Pyrodex P. [While I'm biased against the stuff too, I'm going to shoot it rather than toss it.] For the cases I had and the old 130gr #358262 I was using, I determined a .015" card disc over the powder and a pea sized gob of Emmerts Lube before crimping in the bullet makes for a snuggly packed "no gap" finished round. Very elaborate assembly but I don't think you're going to have a hard time getting fouling out with a lube cookie like this. You'll likely be able to forget about what's in the grooves on your bullet this way too, so long as there's something the cookie will do a lot of the work.

[Outpost75]

In the black powder era catalog velocities were based upon firings in solid, industrial test barrels, rather than revolvers. The balloon-head cases used pre-WW2 held more powder, and the actual velocity measurements didn't use digital counter chronographs, but the more primitive Boulanger device https://books.google.ca/books?id=qz-...ograph&f=false

Modern .357 brass holds about as much black powder as the older pre-WW2 balloon-head .38 Specials. Using compressed, case-capacity charges of high quality black powder such as Swiss or Olde Ensford, you can load about 22 grains with 1/8" compression. Velocity is about 850 fps from a 6-inch revolver with 0.006" cylinder gap and about 1050 fps in a 24-inch Winchester 1873 clone.

Use the Accurate 36-155C or 36-158C, cast 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals with SPG lube and you will be entirely satisfied.

Attachment 282606Attachment 282607

If mixing your own BP lube 50-50 beeswax and either Goya manteca (unsalted lard) or olive oil is cheap, traditional and effective