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Thread: Remington Rolling Block #1 chambering?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Remington Rolling Block #1 chambering?

    It is some kind of bottle neck round and it is at the LGS having the chamber cast, I've been leaning toward thinking it's a .44-77. With the measurements I have taken it seems about right until I slugged the bore which came up with a groove diameter of 0.453 which seems to big given that Buffalo Arms shows a .446 bullet in their ammo for that cartridge.

    Any ideas?

    Thanks...

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy kootne's Avatar
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    Sporting rifle or military? Do you know the differences? .451 is about right for original sporting rifles in .44/77 irregardless of what Buffalo Arms does. if it is a 44/77, most will have a caliber marking of 44 ctdges or .44S just ahead of the fore arm on the bottom flat or maybe under it. If it is a military, there are several .43 BN calibers that could be that deep in the groove dia. even though the bore dia. is in the .43's.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    If it's a military model it might be. 43 Egyptian the bores in them run around .453"

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Pics of any markings as well as pics of the opened breech area would be helpful.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    What Kootne said. 45ish is exactly what it should be for most originals. In those days before smokeless powder Remington referred to their calibers in terms of bore diameter and not groove. So the 44-77 is actually 45ish. If you look back a little further the 36 colt navy is based on bore diameter as well as per the English method but is actually .375 and their 44 Army a 45.

    Your chamber is designed for paper patch bullets but most softer bullets will bump right up with blackpowder which is all you should use.

    My original and every orginial i know of slugs in the .450+ range. My modern Shiloh is .446. So you must know your chamber neck specs (via cerrosafe or a fired case) , neck thickness of brass, and bore diameter before you jump off and buy a bunch of molds, etc that you won't be able to use.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    Good info everyone, thanks-

    I'd love to do pics of markings but now I'm on the road as it were through the 16th and the rifle is having it's chamber cast by the GS at the LGS. I didn't know how to get the pesky extractor (more of a tab that pushes on the rim) out of the way of a casting. There is nothing I've found on the barrel and apparently a fair percentage of them were unmarked as far as what cartridge they were made for.

    .43 Egyptian and one of the 11.something mm Danish cartridges are two alternatives I've contemplated-there seems to be no exact record of what all those things were chambered in. The fun is going to come when I get home and have a casting to measure because it's tough to find sources that have specks on many of the somewhat obtuse cartridges.

    It's the full stock #1 Military as far as I can tell (measured the thickness of the receiver) though I'm not sure there is a provision for a bayonette-the only Sporting versions I've seen lack the full forestock and three bands but having only just scratched the surface of the history of the Rollingblock I wouldn't bet on anything I know...I had no idea that something like that was manufactured until well into WWI, let alone in some of the early smokeless cartridges including .30-06!

    For instance Yellowhouse-you are dead on, I "knew" that it was a .45-70 and bought some brass, bullets dies and even scrounged up some Accurate 5744 to make .45-70 loads at Trapdoor level so yeah, imagine my surprise when the .45-70 case would not chamber!

    I also ordered some FFg to go with it but most of the BP loads I see mention Magnum Rifle Primers which (lacking a Magnum rifle) I naturally have precisely none of! That may be a stumbling block and subject for another discussion...

    At least of the old BP cartridges .45-70 is the cheap one to make that kind of mistake with and who knows what the future holds? I keep saying that I'm not going to get any thing else that I don't have stuff to reload for. Well, the rolling block was in the family so to speak and now I have dies for .45-70!

    So I guess I wait till I get home and have a casting to measure-hopefully something that I can recognize...

    I'll be back when I have more (probably about the 18th) and I'll take it up from there-

    Again, I appreciate the help-this could be really fun!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    It sounds like a great adventure, whatever it turns out to be. BTW, magnum primers are not needed with black powder.

  8. #8
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    It could be a Spanish Reformado. They run about .454.
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    Regular rifle primers will work just fine, so that should not be a bump in the road.
    Background.... there was a short time 20-30 years ago - trying to relearn how to load black powder cartridges, we talked ourselves into thinking magnum primers made some difference in accuracy and fouling control. That idea may linger and be supported in older writings you run accross.
    Chill Wills

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    Oh good-I have some LRP's...not as many as I used to think I should have but enough to spare some for a relatively low round count project like this!

    I'm not a big fan of wiki but this has been one source of dimensions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_mm_caliber

    It lists a 11 Spanish Remington as a bottle neck and again, about the right size but calls the Reformado a straight, rimmed case...but yeah, there's another possibility or three in there.

    Form does follow function and in the face of the new technology of formed brass cartridges there were a bunch of ideas of how best to launch a bullet of M mass with X amount of energy over Y distance when the Holy Black was the only propellant you had...and the designers kept coming up with about the same answer around the globe, give or take a millimeter here and there.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    Regular rifle primers will work just fine, so that should not be a bump in the road.
    Background.... there was a short time 20-30 years ago - trying to relearn how to load black powder cartridges, we talked ourselves into thinking magnum primers made some difference in accuracy and fouling control. That idea may linger and be supported in older writings you run accross.
    Are you saying that magnum primers are worse in black powder cartridges?

    Are you saying that magnum primers are not better in black powder cartridges?

    Are you saying that standard primers work in black powder cartridges?

    I think the real answer is standard primers work it depends on the cartridge, powder, load, gun whether magnum primers are better.

    Tim
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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  12. #12
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    Hello Tim, Hmmmm,....kinda like giving a Disposition.
    Question 1. Maybe, … if someone is curious, they would have to test it in their rifle and see.
    Question 2. Maybe, …again, if someone is curious, they would have to test it in their rifle and see.
    Question 3. Yes

    Your follow up statement. I am going to add some commas and a may.
    "I think the real answer is, standard primers may work, it depends on the cartridge, powder, load, gun whether magnum primers are better."

    I agree.

    Respectfully, Michael Rix
    Chill Wills

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    Hello Tim, Hmmmm,....kinda like giving a Disposition.
    Question 1. Maybe, … if someone is curious, they would have to test it in their rifle and see.
    Question 2. Maybe, …again, if someone is curious, they would have to test it in their rifle and see.
    Question 3. Yes

    Your follow up statement. I am going to add some commas and a may.
    "I think the real answer is, standard primers may work, it depends on the cartridge, powder, load, gun whether magnum primers are better."

    I agree.

    Respectfully, Michael Rix
    Disposition, deposition, inquisition. I was not meaning to put you on the spot, it just was not clear where you were coming down regarding Mag primers. In my applications I can't really tell the difference so if the powder charge is large I use a Mag. primer. If I couldn't get them I would not sweat it and just use standard primers.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Magnum or standard primer? Shootem and let the target tell you which one.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Okay, can't help it and I needed a laugh at this point...

    https://external-content.duckduckgo....peg&f=1&nofb=1

    Since primers are made of unobtainium right now I guess I'll use standard primers when I get things sorted out as to what kind of cartridge I'm dealing with...

    I was hoping for .44-77 or maybe .43 Spanish...but I got a call from the gunsmith who says it is a 11mm French Gras/11mm Vickers (they're the same) but tougher to come by than the others. The thing is I was expecting to have an epoxy cast done but I was told that the release agent was dried up so a wax mold was made and measured with dial calipers...



    Really? I told the gunshop that I was going to be gone two weeks and there wasn't a rush...

    Anyway, I've got a dial caliper, a micrometer and there's going to be some Cerrosafe waiting for me at the house when I get home because I guess sometimes one has to do for themself.

    In the mean time, this is an earlier version of the #1 with the sliding shell ejector rather than the rotating one which looks like it would come out with the rolling breech block which brings up another question...

    I know how to get the breech block and hammer out of the way but what of the ejector slide?

    I don't know how long this is going to take now which is fine-there's no rush and it's not like I need it to hunt with this year.

    Some day though it might be fun to take it moose hunting...
    Last edited by Capt. Methane; 05-11-2021 at 01:16 AM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Yes, I'd want to do that again myself if that is what happened to me at the gunsmiths. Some of the 11mm are quite close. Where are you going to get brass for that if it is a 11mm Gras?
    I Am Descended From Men Who Would Not Be Ruled

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  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    There is a screw on the top, left side of the action. The tip of it retains the sliding bar extractor. Remove the block, then remove that screw. The extractor will then slide out.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I run the 45-110 in long range competition. In 2 different Shiloh Sharps, a very tall powder column, 1st Scope National Championships was in 2006, last midrange was in 2018.

    I use only 2 makes of primers, Winchester white box, and Federal 210M. Absolutely no need for a magnum primer, unless hard fouling at the mouth of your case is your goal. My first 110 was rebarreled in 2005, after just shy 20,000 rounds. My bull barrel rifle is now pushing 6000 rounds, all paper patched btw.

    In 2008 I set a record group with a PP bullet in Pedersoli’s 5@200 challenge match. Actually I have won it twice with the same 110. The rebarreled LRE. Group size was 1.336 inches.

    All my groups and titles have been won with LR Winchester primers.

    Kenny Wasserburger
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 90AEB508-3B14-498C-964C-8E5C38DF90BC.jpg   F44C06D8-8AAA-4E8F-932E-23E9D9EBE915.jpg   KWs5200Group.jpg  

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    It could be a 43 Egyptian, or other.
    Chamber cast it to see what it is. Measure the twist so you don't use a bullet to long for the twist and find you can't hit the broad side of a barn.
    Large rifle primers work fine.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    For those that wish for original rollers in 44-77. It just about has to be in the Sporting model. If its military its going to be something else. There are a few rare military trial types around but like hens teeth and more. Even if it is a sporter its wise to do a chamber cast cause too many have been monkeyed with.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check