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Thread: Schuetzen Question

  1. #1
    Boolit Master 1874Sharps's Avatar
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    Schuetzen Question

    Gentlemen:

    I have a question about loading for the 8.15X46R Schuetzen rifle. First, I know from the moderate bit of reading done on this cartridge that the 8.15X46R (marked as 7.7 on the underneath side of the barrel) was far from standardized. My rifle was made in the late 1920s and the barrel slugs at 0.305" bore and 0.316" grooves. From what I have read, sometimes the bore on rifles so chambered can go up to 0.323". My chamber cast reveals that the throat is large and funnel-shaped with plenty of room to accommodate a 0.323" boolit. The mouth of a fire-formed case measures at 0.323".

    I know that some shooters of these great old rifles breech seat the bullet and then place a charged case with card wad behind it. Others use a stop-ring bullet that finger presses into the mouth of a charge cartridge just before shooting. Do any of you Schuetzen-ators out there have an idea if this chamber and bore combination was intended for one method or the other?

    I have always chosen a rifle boolit to fit the groove diameter plus one thousandth more and got good results, but am trying to rationalize all the measurements that seem a bit contradictory. Tom, over at Accurate Molds, lists three different stop-ring boolit molds of similar diameter and style on page 5 of his online catalog. They are all dimensioned, it seems, for the larger bore diameter. The 8.15X46R Schuetzen target rifle typically shoots a boolit of approximately 180 grains at around 1,400 fps, so the chamber pressure surely is not that great. Is the rifle made to use a boolit that is around seven thousandths of an inch over bore / groove diameter so that the long leade and smaller bore swage the boolit down? Do I need to order a mold in the customary manner of one thousandth of an inch over groove diameter? Any help would be appreciated.
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  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master pietro's Avatar
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    .

    No two chambers are alike in these rifles - most are 8.15x46R's and some were 7.7x46R's.

    Grove diameters vary from .315 to .323

    Since your barrel is marked 7.7, I would opine that contrary to the 8.15x46R marking, you have a 7.7x46R

    Some barrels are proofed and rifled for jacketed projectiles, for some cast boolits, and some are breech seated stop ring bullets.

    With a .323" bore, I would used cast boolits intended for the .32-40

    .
    Last edited by pietro; 05-04-2021 at 03:41 PM.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    Whether it's reamed for breech seating depends on the lead or transition from chamber to rifling. And some of the older chamber reamers have very gradual transitions that work well to breech seat regardless. It sounds like your could be that type.
    But the real key is what type of action you have whether it will accommodate a mechanical seater to fit the action. Most are either Aydt, or Martini style actions, which don't lend them selves to mechanical seaters, and were almost always shot as fixed bullets.
    I had a Haenel Aydt schuetzen rifle and used .32 Win. Sol. cases run through my 8.15x46 dies and then .32-40 bullets sized for the groove diameter. Never bought any stop ring bullets, and just loaded like I did my .32-40 ammo. Shot very well fixed, and very acurate.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master 1874Sharps's Avatar
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    This is an Aydt system and with the sight fixed in the socket to the rear of the action it may be difficult to use a breech seating tool.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master 1874Sharps's Avatar
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    Does anyone see any potential pressure or other problems if a soft boolit (say 20:1) were used and swaged down from the throat to the bore a good seven thousandths of an inch? The load I plan to start with is 13.5 grains of IMR 4227 with a 170 to 180 grain 20:1 boolit.
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  6. #6
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    1874 Sharps - I know nothing of Schuetzens, but I do have an experience of a big difference between barrel and throat dimensions that relates to your questions. You say your rifle's throat starts at .323". That is probably the bullet diameter you will need to ensure nothing gets past the bullet, if using fixed ammo.

    I had a very early Mannlicher Schonauer 9x56 carbine with .353" barrel and a long cone shaped throat that started at .359". Eventually I did a chamber cast, but before that I had worked out that a .354" bullet (Lyman .348 Loverin type mould) gave indifferent accuracy, and then only if loaded lightly. Next try was #3589HP (the carbine needed a heavy bullet for it to shoot to the sights), .360" from the mould. Sized to .354" it too shot indifferently. Lubed and gas checked at .360", with 40 gns 3031, it shot 1.25" groups at 50 yds and turned in a bit over 1900 fps.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 05-05-2021 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Add provisos
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master 1874Sharps's Avatar
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    Thanks, guys. It would seem the answer, then, is to fit the boolit to the chamber and let the throat and bore swage it down, even though it has a whopping 0.007" to shrink. I will give it a try with some paper patch and 0.323" Lee 8 mm cast boolits I have on hand.
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  8. #8
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    There were more than a few versions of the 8.15x45r cartridge. It was normalized and more or less standardized. Is the caliber designation 8.15x45-46 with an "N" after it?. if so it is a standardized version. If no "N" and as you say the throat will take .323 diameter bullets then breech seating should be the way to go. Normally basic tin- lead alloys are used something like 25 to 1 or 20 to 1. Your rifle will tell you what it likes. Frank
    Last edited by samari46; 05-06-2021 at 12:38 AM.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master 1874Sharps's Avatar
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    There is no "N" or "NORM" stamped on it, so I suppose it was made before the attempts of standardization, or perhaps the standardization was ignored by this particular gunsmith.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1874Sharps View Post
    This is an Aydt system and with the sight fixed in the socket to the rear of the action it may be difficult to use a breech seating tool.
    I would consider trying a plugged cartridge case as a breech seater. I've had good results with them in rifles where I have no mechanical seater. They'll work as long as the bullet doesn't take much effort to seat.

    Chris,

  11. #11
    Boolit Master 1874Sharps's Avatar
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    You know, that is not a bad idea! I could use an 8mm or perhaps 5/16" rod in an empty case and use it as a breech seating tool combined with the camming action of the swinging block of the Aydt action.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    I would not expect good accuracy with a bullet that's .007" over groove diameter. The bullet being that large will have huge fins on the base created when it swages down into the rifling, and fins are detrimental to good accuracy.
    I would not go over .001"-.002" over groove size myself. And for breech seating I'd only have the base band of the bullet that size. The forward bands would be a few thousandths smaller at each band until you reach bore diameter, and stop there.
    You can breech seat with an Aydt action, but it will require a push seater, and a properly fitted bullet to allow you to do so. The old Ideal push seaters worked well, but of course not as easy as a seater with mechanical advantage.
    This is an Ideal push seater on the middle left in my display case with the black knob.



    It has enough offset to work around the sight bases of Aydt type rifles. These can be made from a piece of 1/4" round rod threaded on both ends and bent to an offset for clearance. Use a fired case by drilling and tapping the base to fit the rod. Thread the rod long enough to allow it to adjust seating depth of the bullet.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Size the bullet to .318 and forget about it. If it's like my Haenel/Aydt of the same dimensions it'll shoot sub MOA at 100.
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  14. #14
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    I am amazed that with all of these responses so far no one has suggested you visit the German Arms Collectors’ website where lots of real experts on German Guns of all sorts hang out. In addition, there are lots of enthusiastic owners and shooters of Germanic Schuetzen rifles that hang out on the ASSRA.com forum. Lots of knowledge resides at both of these sites.

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunlaker View Post
    I would consider trying a plugged cartridge case as a breech seater. I've had good results with them in rifles where I have no mechanical seater. They'll work as long as the bullet doesn't take much effort to seat.

    Chris,
    This is exactly what I'm doing with my Aydt (1890), at least it's what I was doing before covid shut down the ranges. It isn't complicated and should work pretty well, I just haven't been able to test it. I have a supply of 32-40 bullets and stop-ring boolits, plus the modified cartridge-turned seating tool, just waiting for things to get back to normal.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Frog View Post
    I am amazed that with all of these responses so far no one has suggested you visit the German Arms Collectors’ website where lots of real experts on German Guns of all sorts hang out. In addition, there are lots of enthusiastic owners and shooters of Germanic Schuetzen rifles that hang out on the ASSRA.com forum. Lots of knowledge resides at both of these sites.

    Froggie
    One of those would be me.
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here's my un-tested seating tool. If you're good with hand tools and a cordless drill it's a simple enough project, just fairly labor-intensive.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
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    Here's my un-tested seating tool. If you're good with hand tools and a cordless drill it's a simple enough project, just fairly labor-intensive.
    HEY! I like that! Smart!
    Threaded means adjustable I assume. Very good!
    Chill Wills

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    I just went through the same questions. I bought an AYDT style rifle. My bore measures .318 and groove is .322. Chamber cast shows a funnel type chamber
    I was interested in a stop ring bullet, the one I questioned was an NOE 180 gr. The dimensions were, bore .327, groove .322 and the stop ring at .334. I'm thinking where does all the lead go from the stop ring. Well I still don't know. I guess it just gets swaged in the funnel chamber. I did buy the NOE and it shoots well but I have tied some grease groove types ranging from 165 gr to 220 gr and they shoot pretty much the same as the stop ring. Doing my part I can get right around an inch at 100 yds. Been using Imr 4227 and pull down WC 820 both with similar results. Good luck with yours. They are fun to shoot. A little awkward off the bench. Well really awkward but doable and with the minimal recoil.
    Last edited by bullshot; 05-09-2021 at 09:45 PM.
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    Boolit Master marlinman93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSnover View Post
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    Here's my un-tested seating tool. If you're good with hand tools and a cordless drill it's a simple enough project, just fairly labor-intensive.
    Great to have adjustment for seating depth. But how do you push the bullet into the rifling with this device?

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BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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