Discussion about 38 special wadcutters for target use.

[tazman]

In particular, the effect on pressures and internal volume of different wadcutter boolits.
I have recently seen a couple of people make what I believe is a mistake about necessary powder charges for standard target wadcuters when changing from a hollow based wadcutter to a solid wadcutter.
Specifically, a wadcutter loaded flush with the case mouth and crimped in place in both instances.
The idea was expressed that there would be less pressure from a solid wadcutter so loaded because the boolit is shorter than a hollow based wadcutter which would be seated deeper inside the case. I believe this to be in error.
In both instances, the boolits are flush with the case mouth. Both boolits weigh exactly 148 grains. There is exactly the same weight of lead inside the case in each instance. Both boolits would displace the same amount of water if dropped into a glass. Assuming the same alloy for each boolit, the solid volume of each boolit would be the same because they weigh the same.
The only reason the hollow based wadcutter base is farther into the case is because of the hole on the back end of the boolit. Even though the base is deeper into the boolit, the hollow in the base allows for the same internal volume for the cartridge as a solid boolit. There should be no difference in pressure due to the boolit other than a possibly tiny amount due to a longer drive band area. I would expect this to make little difference in pressure during firing.

If there is an obvious error in my reasoning, please educate me.

[dverna]

I agree with your analysis

[Thumbcocker]

I lack the knowledge to weigh in on this so I will just watch.

[OS OK]

I agree also. The only difference being the drive band length which you'd think takes a little more push to make it move so it sits in place for a 'fraction of a fraction' of a second longer as the combustion starts until a little extra pressure is built to move the cast.
Maybe that results in a different pressure overall but I'd think it was minimal.

Does that sound about right?

[Outpost75]

All you need to do is look at the pressure test data in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, 2010.

[ReloaderFred]

I agree, tazman. When I was shooting PPC matches on our dept. Pistol Team in the 1970's, we went through thousands and thousands of wadcutter bullets. We generally loaded solid wadcutters for the 7 yard line, and HBWC's for the 25 and 50 yard lines. We cast our own solid wadcutters, and purchased our HBWC's, so there was a savings, since we were loading and paying for our own ammunition. We used the exact same powder charge for both bullets, 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Never once did we ever notice any difference in visible pressure signs, recoil or even point of impact.

We simply used the HBWC bullets at the longer distances because we got better accuracy at those distances with the bullets we were buying, and psychologically, we "knew" we would shoot better with the purchased HBWC bullets. We had a Ransom Rest mounted to a concrete base that we tested our loads with at 50 yards, so the proof the HBWC loads were more accurate were shown on the target from the rest.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[tazman]

All you need to do is look at the pressure test data in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, 2010.

I just looked at the data in that manual and I am not certain what you are referring to. The data for the 358091 is for the boolit crimped in the crimp groove, not even with the case mouth.
That changes everything.
Trim length for a 38 special case is 1.149 the OAL for the 358091 is listed as 1.317. That is a difference of .168 inches. Completely different data.

[9.3X62AL]

I generally agree with the above series of texts. It has been a while, but I have abundant past experience with both solid and hollow-based wadcutters in both 32 S&W Long and 38 Special calibers; I have substantially less time-in-grade with these same bullet designs in 32 H&R Magnum and 357 Magnum.

Solid wadcutter designs are far more load-flexible than are HBWCs. Irrespective of caliber loaded, the HBWC is somewhat restricted in pressure levels the ammo can be loaded to. Once past the pressure gradient that enables more than about 825 FPS, you run the risk of sticking a HBWC skirt in a forcing cone or bore; both Speer and Hornady warn against exceeding listed max loads in their respective manuals for this reason. Solid wadcutters, on the other hand, are only limited by the pressure containment potential of the firearms firing them; I have run both Lymans #313492 and #358432 to 1200 FPS+ with no loss of accuracy. Both bullets (now out-of-print) are superbly accurate from 700 FPS to 1200 FPS. My best loads with HBWCs run in the 750-775 FPS ZIP Code.

[ddixie884]

The two bullets take up the same amount of space if they are the same weight and seated to the same OAL......

[tazman]

The two bullets take up the same amount of space if they are the same weight and seated to the same OAL......

That was my point exactly.
The only qualifier would be having the same, or nearly so, nose shape. That slight button on the nose of some wadcutters will give a slightly longer OAL but I doubt it makes much difference to the pressure.

Interesting that the factory loadings all run in the vicinity of 700fps.
I seem to get better accuracy at around 800 fps or a bit more.
Much of the difference may be because of the weakness of the hollow base. The factory doesn't want to push it as 9.3X62AL suggests..

9.3X62AL--- I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion of the 358432. I use that boolit a lot. It spends a lot of time in my carry revolver.

[downzero]

Pressure = force / area

[Outpost75]

.38 wadcutter OAL to fit S&W 52 magazine is 1.265, check Lyman data for Saeco wadcutter at that OAL pressure is <14,000 psi

[tazman]

.38 wadcutter OAL to fit S&W 52 magazine is 1.265, check Lyman data for Saeco wadcutter at that OAL pressure is <14,000 psi

That may well be the longest length that will fit in a S&W 52 magazine. I have never owned one so I can't say.
The majority of factory loaded wadcutters I have seen are loaded shorter than that. Right even with the mouth of the case.

[MT Gianni]

The HB wadcutter will have a longer bearing surface and increased friction.

[USSR]

That may well be the longest length that will fit in a S&W 52 magazine. I have never owned one so I can't say.
The majority of factory loaded wadcutters I have seen are loaded shorter than that. Right even with the mouth of the case.

Yeah, most everyone I've talked to loads them flush with the case mouth to get them to feed properly.

Don

[USSR]

Here's a link to the Bullseye Forum talking about loading for the Model 52. Consensus: bullet seated to slightly below case mouth and a slight roll crimp.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t9470-...he-sw-model-52

Don

[Geezer in NH]

Read this post twice what are we arguing about?

I have shot 3 grains bullseye or Red dot with my own cast wadcutters and 2.7 of either with bought HBWC so the hollow bases won't separate.

Unless I load the HBWC in backwards then I will go much higher than both loads stated.

[Bigslug]

The HB wadcutter will have a longer bearing surface and increased friction.

It's also going to have the Minie ball effect trying to expand the base into the available bore space, so maybe a little more drag from that too, so a slight increase in pressure, methinks. How that maintains once it jumps the cylinder gap and starts venting? ? ? ? I suspect that involves a lot of math. . .and that stuff HURTS!

[tazman]

These conditions MAY cause an increase in drag and an increase in pressure. I think these differences will be minimal and not cause a great change in pressure. I could be wrong about this.
Mostly, I am relying on test reports from members who have compared pressures from different hardness and between jacketed and cast. The differences are normally not great or even significant in many cases.
I have no means of testing to find out.
This would be a fairly straightforward test for someone who does have the necessary equipment. That is probably the only way we can get a definitive answer.

[USSR]

Where's Larry when ya need him?

Don