.38 Wadcutter, cast vs swaged?

[gun toting monkeyboy]

I recently picked up a S&W Model 52. It is a .38 Special target pistol set up to use wadcutter loads. It looks like the ideal loading for these is a 148 grain wadcutter over 2.7 grains of Bullseye, seated flush with just a hint of a crimp to aid in feeding. Unfortunately for me, I am out of the soft lead 148 grain HBWC bullets that most shooters seem to prefer. A quick google search shows that just about all of my usual suspects for ording supplies online are out of them too. I can easily get my hands on 148 grain hard cast DEWC bullets, or even cast my own. But is it worth it? Could I expect anything near the accuracy I would get with the soft lead swaged bullets? I have a somewhat limited supply of small pistol primers, and I am loathe to waste them on something that might not be worth it right now. Should I bother trying with the hard cast bullets? Am I over-thinking this? Any opinions from the Bullseye Target Shooting crowd?

-Mb

[Outpost75]

I would cast your own 12-13 BHN and use a light coating of 45-45-10 and bump the charge a wee bit to 3 grains of Bullseye with the DEWC bullet. I load mine with the sprue cut forward to insure a perfect base, loading bullets as-cast and unsized, but running rounds through the Redding Profile Crimp. Firing from BSA Martini action with Green Mountain barrel and 10X Unertl ten-shot groups under 2 inches at 50 yards are possible. Not quite as good as the very best factory wadcutters, but better than average.

[zarrinvz24]

Outpost has this science down to perfection. I would take his advice to heart.

[gun toting monkeyboy]

My only concern here is that several online sources as well as several Bullseye shooters (the sport of bullseye shooting, not the powder) who have these have said 2.9 grains of bullseye powder is the maximum load for these guns. This was literally the most I have ever paid for a handgun, and I would really hate to screw it up by using loads that are too hot. Remember, this particular firearm is pushing 60 years old, and is still in nearly new condition. And parts to repair it are nearly non-existent. On the other hand, 3 grains of bullseye is nothing in regular .38 Special loads.

Also, why unsized bullets? Wouldn't I want them at a uniform size like .358"?

Another related question here is can I use a powder coating on the hard cast bullets with this? Or will that also mess with the accuracy?

[USSR]

With the deeply seated wadcutters used in the Model 52, I would stay with the typical 2.7 - 2.8gr Bullseye load. Also, these pistols typically use .355 - .356" bullets.

Don

[Outpost75]

With the deeply seated wadcutters used in the Model 52, I would stay with the typical 2.7 - 2.8gr Bullseye load. Also, these pistols typically use .355 - .356" bullets.

Don

Overall length of the 146 DEWC bullets is much shorter than factory HBWCs so their seating depth is less.
The slight 0.2 grain charge increase with the shorter DEWC maintains loading density and velocity at normal pressure <14,000 psi at 1.265" OAL

[Outpost75]

My only concern here is that several online sources as well as several Bullseye shooters (the sport of bullseye shooting, not the powder) who have these have said 2.9 grains of bullseye powder is the maximum load for these guns. This was literally the most I have ever paid for a handgun, and I would really hate to screw it up by using loads that are too hot. Remember, this particular firearm is pushing 60 years old, and is still in nearly new condition. And parts to repair it are nearly non-existent. On the other hand, 3 grains of bullseye is nothing in regular .38 Special loads.

Also, why unsized bullets? Wouldn't I want them at a uniform size like .358"?

Another related question here is can I use a powder coating on the hard cast bullets with this? Or will that also mess with the accuracy?

2.9 grains is max. with soft-swaged HBWCs to avoid blowing the skirt, but is a starting load <14,000 psi with a Saeco #348 DEWC. at 1.265" OAL.

Using the profile crimp die the bullets are sized by compression inside the case.

I've never gotten ten-ring 50-yard accuracy with powder coating and I don't know a single High Master competitor who uses PC. It works OK for 50-foot indoor gallery and revolver PPC on the B27 target, but it isn't competitive at Master level for conventional NRA bullseye.

"Hard" cast is unnecessary at .38 Special pressures. You get better accuracy and less leading by using 12-13 BHN in the .38 wadcutter autoloaders.

[Martin Luber]

While Outpost has good advice, the Smith Model 52 is a study unto itself. First and foremost, the chamber is unsupported so that it will feed the long shell. There will be a bulge near the case rim with the higher end loads for this gun. Over that, you can get a rupture. Don't push it.

It has a 9 mm barrel like 0.355 groove but a 38 chamber in front. Oversize bullets in thicker cases won't chamber. What are your goals for this gun? They are fussy at 50 Yards and HBWC are strongly preferred. Yes you can use cast but at 356, they may be loose in the case or not develop enough pressure to cycle. Cast boolets shoot but only at 25 yards. Max loads are 2.8 BE, 3.2 of 231, 2.7 of 700x, or 2.9 of WST. The latter is magic.

Cases matter; wadcutter brass has a longer straightwall. Seating flush #50 h&g can bulge standard brass at the boolet base. Test with the shank of a 23/64 drill bit. Use you thumbnail to mark how deep it goes. WC cases allow the full length of the boolet to enter the case. Otherwise the tapered casewall crushes the base in or for a hard boolet, bulges out. Remington wc brass has two cannelure lines on the sidewall. Avoid +p brass.

Sorry for the long wheeze, l have put a LOT of time into these , they van be fun but watch out for duds with a barrel obstruction.

[Martin Luber]

Oh, the other neat trick with them is in addition to regular lube, tumble lube them too, cuts down on smoke

[USSR]

...the Smith Model 52 is a study unto itself.

Yep! I stand by my statement of not increasing the charge weight.

Don

[lesharris]

Load them flush with the case mouth. 2.7-2.8 Grains bullseye works fine. Shot that load over 12 years in pistol leagues. Double ended or hollow base no difference at 25 yards. 50 yards check impact point.

[ABJ]

While Outpost has good advice, the Smith Model 52 is a study unto itself. First and foremost, the chamber is unsupported so that it will feed the long shell. There will be a bulge near the case rim with the higher end loads for this gun. Over that, you can get a rupture. Don't push it.

It has a 9 mm barrel like 0.355 groove but a 38 chamber in front. Oversize bullets in thicker cases won't chamber. What are your goals for this gun? They are fussy at 50 Yards and HBWC are strongly preferred. Yes you can use cast but at 356, they may be loose in the case or not develop enough pressure to cycle. Cast boolets shoot but only at 25 yards. Max loads are 2.8 BE, 3.2 of 231, 2.7 of 700x, or 2.9 of WST. The latter is magic.

Cases matter; wadcutter brass has a longer straightwall. Seating flush #50 h&g can bulge standard brass at the boolet base. Test with the shank of a 23/64 drill bit. Use you thumbnail to mark how deep it goes. WC cases allow the full length of the boolet to enter the case. Otherwise the tapered casewall crushes the base in or for a hard boolet, bulges out. Remington wc brass has two cannelure lines on the sidewall. Avoid +p brass.

Sorry for the long wheeze, l have put a LOT of time into these , they van be fun but watch out for duds with a barrel obstruction.

Another NRA Bullseye shooter here, Outpost and Martin Luber have a good handle on what they recommend. The hollow base 148's are longer and deeper seated than cast 148's. Most 52 mags will allow the boolit to be just proud of the case for crimping, if yours will, we had better accuracy this way with the hollowbase.
We tested everything we could come up with on cast. The short version is 20:1 alloy on the lee 148 bnwc or the Magma dewc, seated as long as the mag and feeding will allow. The second best was coww with 1-1/2% tin added and as Outpost suggested the sprue cut out. All our good loads had to have true wadcutter cases. R/P and Federal proved best. Sizing was .358.
50 yd accuracy was better with cast than hollowbase and about the same at 25. I think the limiting factor on your gun or any 38 is the twist rate. Faster twist on our 1911/38 wad guns like 1:12 does much better at the long line. We normally only lube one groove but the 52 did seem to like the addition of a very very light coat of LLA. It could have been our barrel only and not smith barrels in general but it pays to play around with it. This subject could go on for hours, so much testing has been done with this gun for decades.
Tony

[Burnt Fingers]

No reason to use BHN 12-13 boolits in this gun. NONE.

You would be better off with pure IMHO.

You can get a HB wadcutter mold.

https://www.mp-molds.com/product/hg-...2-cavity-mold/
https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-38-hbwc-4-cav/

[USSR]

I've got the above MP mold. Casts nice HBWC's!

Don

[d4xycrq]

My Colt 1911 seems to enjoy any 38 wadcutter when I use 2.8 gr of Bullseye. Range scrap in Lee soupcan, too.

Once I started casting any likelihood of buying swaged bullets dropped to zero.

[Outpost75]

We were converting .38 Super Government Models for .38 wadcutter, barrels were ten-inch twist like 9mm and guns retained locked breech, not blowback like Gold Cup.

[fredj338]

Carefully cast should shoot as well as swaged. So I would cast my own, weigh them for uniformity, size & go shoot.

[45DUDE]

2.8 bullseye will work fine with a .358 flat base dewc. My shooting buddy uses that load in his 52. I have three 38 special autos myself. Do not use a plated wad cutter bullet it the 52.

[ABJ]

If I were going to get back into 52's with factory barrels I would spend my time with soft cast flat base wadcutters. I have tried pure lead and they were pretty good but 3 to 5 percent tin added was better. Having said that if Clark is still making fast twist replacement barrels with deeper grooves that makes it a whole different gun.
I have often thought that Taylor throating the factory barrels would improve their pickyness. It has absolutely worked on the model 14's and 15's. Myself and others have not had the stomach to risk it. Replacement parts are not easy to find.
Tony

[Bmi48219]

Do not use a plated wad cutter bullet it the 52.

Why not?