RepackboxLee PrecisionTitan ReloadingMidSouth Shooters Supply
RotoMetals2WidenersInline FabricationLoad Data
Reloading Everything
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: Having a lot of setbacks...

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

    Land Owner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mims, FL
    Posts
    1,864

    Having a lot of setbacks...

    I am in a slump and do not now know what to do next.

    I've made some [constant] 58 gr., 49-49-2 Pb-WW-Sn, RCBS 22-55-SP's, to be water quenched after PC, [variables] gas checked, PC'd with Smoke's OD Green, and sized to 0.225", and PC's some with Smoke's Bacon Grease, not sized, not gas checked, 0.226", and loaded STANDARD JACKETED LOADS (ladder loads) of Win 748 powder (23.5 grains ~ 2700 fps book velocity to 25.5 grains ~ 3100 fps) in 0.5 grain increments.

    The first three sets of three, nine in each, cast rounds from a Handi-rifle Standard 1:12 twist barrel and a Bull 1:9 barrel found their respective targets and made "decent" but as yet unacceptable groups (best ~2.5 MOA @ 100 yds).

    EVERYTHING thereafter DISAPPEARED. None of the next 6 rounds for either rifle (12 rounds and then some others) found any portion of the 24" x 36" white drawing sheet over cardboard backed target. Using 60 grain jacketed Nosler Partitions for double checking, the scopes on each rifle are still dead on the center of the sheet.

    Did the cast projectiles disintegrate? At 10 yards, additional [constant] cast boolits over 25.0 grain Win 748 powder put a hurtin' on a 12" diameter (nearly dead) Sable Palm tree, blowing out its back side. Beyond that distance, IDK where the projectiles went.

    If jacketed bullet powder loads (>2500 fps say) are too hot, and cast boolit manual loads (up to 1200 fps say) are cold for PC'd boolits, WHERE do we find published data for PC'd boolits?

    Are we WILDCATTING here in the middle ground of 1200 fps to 2500 fps? Is there a resource for what has been tried, notwithstanding a specific barrel reacting independently, so reinventing the wheel isn't necessary?
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    405grain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    1,213
    I think that the problem might be too much velocity. Like any handloading: start low, then work up. Try starting out at published cast boolit load levels, then working up in increments until accuracy goes away, or there is some other problem inhibiting the cartridges performance. Just my opinion, but I've always felt that accuracy was more important than velocity. Where ever you get your best accuracy and reliability with a given boolit/cartridge combination, that should be your load. For a lot of cast loads (not all) that is usually somewhere between 1600 fps and 1900 fps. Your mileage may vary, but you won't know for sure until you work up the best load for your particular firearm.

  3. #3
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Thomaston, GA
    Posts
    69
    Have you checked for leading that may be throwing the accuracy off?

  4. #4
    Moderator


    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Just outside Gun Barrel City, Texas
    Posts
    9,492
    If you're not too terribly far off target, sometimes you can see where ya are by aiming at 12:00, 6:00,
    and it that doesn't work- shoot at each corner.

    Next thing would be to cover the whole target board with white butcher paper.
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


    OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
    This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
    EVERYONE!
    Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,958
    You don't say what cartridge you are using but I guess 223 Rem. My 223 is a Browning with a 1:12" twist which through experiment will shoot RCBS 55gn cast and powder coated boolits right up to 2,800fps with good accuracy.

    A friends 'Ruger American' with 1:8" twist will not shoot cast boolits at all. Check the twist rate on your barrel and I suspect thet may be the problem?

    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

    Land Owner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mims, FL
    Posts
    1,864
    405grain - I started at the bottom for the published recipe and worked up. Tell me where to find published recipes for 1600 fps to 1900 fps powder and I'll take a look.

    Capt Keith - I'll check tomorrow when I clean the guns.

    Winger Ed - I shot at each corner, top, bottom, and middle of a blank 24" x 36" white plotter paper target with the hotter loads than those that printed and nothing.

    BAW - The barrel twist rates are as stated. A 22-55-SP is 223 Rem.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    610
    Quote Originally Posted by Land Owner View Post
    I am in a slump and do not now know what to do next.

    I've made some [constant] 58 gr., 49-49-2 Pb-WW-Sn, RCBS 22-55-SP's, to be water quenched after PC, [variables] gas checked, PC'd with Smoke's OD Green, and sized to 0.225", and PC's some with Smoke's Bacon Grease, not sized, not gas checked, 0.226", and loaded STANDARD JACKETED LOADS (ladder loads) of Win 748 powder (23.5 grains ~ 2700 fps book velocity to 25.5 grains ~ 3100 fps) in 0.5 grain increments.

    i think you are trying to go too fast

    From the rcbs cast book
    rcbs 22-055 fn 57g

    748 17.0 - 1927 to 19.0 - 2136 fps

    at 25g you are approaching light speed for the Millennium Falcon

    you can also try a bit of dacron ....

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    405grain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    1,213
    Try "The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition". The Lyman 48th handloading manual has some cast load data for the 223, but it's identical to the 55 grain loads in the Cast Bullet Handbook. The highest velocity load they have listed for a 55 grain cast bullet in 223 Remington is 2226 fps, so I think that you may be trying to push your bullets way too hard. Also, these published cast loads were tested with a universal receiver that had a 1-12 twist rate. Your bull barrel with the 1-9 twist rate could be too fast a twist for cast bullets at the velocities your shooting. You can't really use jacketed load data for cast bullets. The barrel friction is lower, and the velocity is way higher when using cast bullets with the same load data as jacketed. Also, the jacket is much more resistant to failure under the centripetal loads of high velocity than any cast bullet could be. If you slow your loads down you'll probably have better performance.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    405grain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Modesto, Ca.
    Posts
    1,213
    At Castpics there's a three part article about loading cast bullets in 223. (PC coated bullets are cast bullets) Here's a link to the first article: the other two are on the site.
    http://castpics.net/dpl/index.php/th...the-223-part-1

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

    Land Owner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mims, FL
    Posts
    1,864
    405grain - Let me digest this. Some good places to start. Thank you.

    FordSD - all my gear is RCBS and I didn't know RCBS had a cast boolit manual...
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NE Florida
    Posts
    701
    Your allow might be too soft for the higher velocities. You might want try some linotype alloy, especially for the higher velocities. Also I have had no luck on 223 without gas checks. I think your bullets are stripping the rifling at the higher velocities and are flying very eratically. One benefit of using linotype is ease of casting, especially with 22 cal boolits. Good luck.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    Land Owner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mims, FL
    Posts
    1,864
    Going too fast is acknowledged. I like your comparison at 25 gr. Ford SD.

    Additional reading is complete, except for the RCBS Cast Manual, to which I don't have access. I own the Lyman #4 Manual, referenced offhanded in the OP. No loads there are Win 748. The point being made was where do I find published Powder Coated boolit reloading recipes?

    Back to the reloading bench. More PC'ing to do. More loads to test. More targets to punch. I am ordinarily a very steady shooter. I was real mad at the targets during my last range session. That had a lot to do with the level of frustration at NOT seeing holes in 24" x 36" white paper at which I KNEW I was aiming. I still owe Capt Keith a check for barrel leading...meaning I have not cleaned the barrels yet - that's next this morning.

    Thank you for the replies. They have helped a lot. My frustration, like a virus, has run its course.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    4,536
    First, yes we are wildcatting with PC lead bullets. There is no mfg data for them that I know of. I use lubed cast bullet mfg data for my loading. It ends up being fairly accurate compared to the muzzle velocities I measure at the range.

    I have not tried to load for .223 but I have loaded a 'lot' of .308.

    Since you had some identifiable groups at the beginning and not later tells me it is something to do with leading or other deposits in the barrel. I also am one of those who thinks that the PC does leave a deposit in the barrel. Gas checked bullets are less of a problem, IMHO because they 'scrape' out the PC fouling. Plain base bullets I have had trouble with after firing 50 to 100 rounds. All of these are in the 1500-2000fps range, which is the sweet spot for my .308.

    So, next session I would try to shoot only the gas checked bullets and see what happens. Keep track of round count as you go to see what the groups do.

    If you were using a stick powder I'd also suggest to reduce the loads a bit. Go ahead and use the lubed cast bullet load data.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy Wild Bill 7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    S.W. Florida
    Posts
    315
    Lyman cast bullet handbook third edition lists
    54grain #225462gc with w748 powder 19.8 start(FPS 1902, cpu 21,600)
    Max 26 (FPS 2697, cpu 32,000) using Remington cases and CCI primers.

  15. #15
    Boolit Grand Master
    white eagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    718 miles E. of Wall Drug
    Posts
    6,160
    Quote Originally Posted by Land Owner View Post
    I am in a slump and do not now know what to do next.

    I've made some [constant] 58 gr., 49-49-2 Pb-WW-Sn, RCBS 22-55-SP's, to be water quenched after PC, [variables] gas checked, PC'd with Smoke's OD Green, and sized to 0.225", and PC's some with Smoke's Bacon Grease, not sized, not gas checked, 0.226", and loaded STANDARD JACKETED LOADS (ladder loads) of Win 748 powder (23.5 grains ~ 2700 fps book velocity to 25.5 grains ~ 3100 fps) in 0.5 grain increments.

    The first three sets of three, nine in each, cast rounds from a Handi-rifle Standard 1:12 twist barrel and a Bull 1:9 barrel found their respective targets and made "decent" but as yet unacceptable groups (best ~2.5 MOA @ 100 yds).

    EVERYTHING thereafter DISAPPEARED. None of the next 6 rounds for either rifle (12 rounds and then some others) found any portion of the 24" x 36" white drawing sheet over cardboard backed target. Using 60 grain jacketed Nosler Partitions for double checking, the scopes on each rifle are still dead on the center of the sheet.

    Did the cast projectiles disintegrate? At 10 yards, additional [constant] cast boolits over 25.0 grain Win 748 powder put a hurtin' on a 12" diameter (nearly dead) Sable Palm tree, blowing out its back side. Beyond that distance, IDK where the projectiles went.

    If jacketed bullet powder loads (>2500 fps say) are too hot, and cast boolit manual loads (up to 1200 fps say) are cold for PC'd boolits, WHERE do we find published data for PC'd boolits?

    Are we WILDCATTING here in the middle ground of 1200 fps to 2500 fps? Is there a resource for what has been tried, notwithstanding a specific barrel reacting independently, so reinventing the wheel isn't necessary?
    like you sig line says
    "If it was easy, anybody could do it."
    just have to hit the correct combo
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

    Land Owner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mims, FL
    Posts
    1,864
    Capt Keith - Checked. NO LEAD in barrel visually (through bore scope) or evident on Bore Snake pulled through a half dozen times followed by a half dozen TIGHT dry patches then lubed. Burnt powder and was dirty. Clean now.

    I revisited the 2004 Complete Reloading Manual for the .223 Remington (Complete 'o4)that includes Accurate, Hercules, Hodgdon, Hornady, IMR, Lyman, Nosler, RCBS, Scot, Sierra, Speer, and Winchester. The Complete...'o4 is a convenient resource along with my library of current Reloading Manuals including Lyman #4, Speer #14, Nosler #7, Hornady 9th Ed., and Hodgdon #27.

    Here are some Complete 'o4 comparisons in 223 for Win 748:

    Lyman '04, 55 gr., #2 alloy, mold 225646, gas checked ==>
    25.0 gr. @ 2563 fps to 29.4C @ 3037 fps [Not kidding - as published]

    RCBS '04, 57 gr., mold 22-055-FN, gas checked ==>
    17.0 gr @ 1927 fps to 19.0 gr. @ 2136 fps

    The mold Mfg. (similar but different boolit designation) published 17 to 19 grains and ~1900 to ~2100 fps. Lyman, a trusted cast resource, says 25.0 to 29.4C gr. and ~2600 to ~3000 fps.

    My observations, 25 gr. and above is too hot, too fast, and too inaccurate. I will cool my jets, start over, discard the results that didn't find paper, thank heavens for those loads that did, but drop well below those levels for further testing.

    OK. With PC, we're WILDCATTING. Ooh-ha-ha! I can extrapolate between 17.0 gr. @ 1927 fps and 26.0 gr. @ 2669 fps (ty: Wild Bill 7). Somewhere in that range there SHOULD be a few nodes of good, better, best accuracy.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    penna
    Posts
    188
    Use gas checks and slower speeds and then work up your loads. Been there done that.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    4,536
    You're on the right track.

    Were you ever on the Acushnet or Boutwell. Son was on them back in the mid-90's.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master

    Land Owner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mims, FL
    Posts
    1,864
    No charlie b, I was on the Burton Island (Hurtin' Burton), WAGB 283, out of Long Beach, back in '75.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    4,536
    I kinda figured you were more my age

    Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check