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Thread: 220 swift for deer

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post

    Snear and opine as you will but I, for one, do NOT consider any .22 round an ethical hunter's general use "deer cartridge." Seems most state game commissions agree with me.
    Nope.

    https://www.rifleshootermag.com/edit...20and%20up.%22

    Today 34 of 50 states allow .22 centerfires for deer. Some of the remainder are "shotgun only" states, so that's a pretty good majority,

    That includes North Carolina

    https://www.westernwhitetail.com/22-centerfires-deer/

    I swallowed the anti-.22 line once, but began to see the light when a South Dakota biologist told me his favorite antelope rifle was a .22-250 Remington “Kill’s ‘em deader than any .300 magnum I’ve ever seen. Does the same to deer,” he said. I’ve since taken a half-dozen pronghorns and whitetails with the .22-250 and concur with the biologist. .

    Personally in the context of this discussion I view "ethics" as percentage of recovered animal. It's hard to argue that 100% recovery is unethical.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 07-05-2021 at 04:33 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  2. #102
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    Thank you, M-Tecs!
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

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  3. #103
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    i wont argue that larger caliber can leave pitiful or no blood trail. Most of that though comes from people that think the more they spend on a bullet the better it will kill or still think a guy should use a 180 in an 06 like grandpa.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Tecs View Post
    First not a single person on this thread is claiming the 220 Swift is the ideal deer caliber. They are pointing out that with a properly placed bullet of the proper design it can be quite effective.

    Second if you are shooting at deer and missing completely you are taking shots beyond your ability. That is on you not the cartridge.

    As to knowing if any ran off that is every easy to prove when you fire one shot and you recover one deer and yes every deer I have shot at with a 22 Cal. centerfire has been one shot one kill. When can I collect your house? Most between 200 and 300yards. That is part of shot selection and knowing your abilities. Also anything over a hundred yards you should hear the bullet impact.

    I did need two shots with a 22-250 on a running Antelope after a buddy did a gut shot with his 30/06 at about 100 yards. I was just along to help since it was his first Antelope hunt. I was hunting coyotes only but he had told me if he cripples one to back him up. I didn't shot until he was empty. First shot I didn't lead enough and my 22-250 gut hit was no more effective than his. Second shot took out both lungs and that was effective and it went tail over nose. That was about 350 long paces.

    Yes you are entitled to your opinion same as everyone else, however, you are not entitled to tell others that their actually experiences are not valid.

    As to the why lots of reasons. Why do people archery hunt? or use a handgun? or a muzzle loader the current trend of the highpower air rifles? All of the are very effective if used properly. If not used properly that is on the user not the weapon. Personally after forty years of NRA HighPower competition shooting and avid prairie dog shooting I find shooting deer or other big game animals with a highpower rifle boring. I still find the rifle hunting enjoyable but when it comes to the shot if is a forgone conclusion as to the outcome before I pull the trigger.

    In the 90's I wanted to kill a deer with ever major US Service cartridge rifle so I did. That was with a Trapdoor Springfield in 45/70, an 1898 Krag in 30/40, an M1 Carbine in 30 Carbine (had to borrow one since I have never owned one) and the 5.56 was with a real M16 with a selector block. Same as with the M-16 I used my Marksmanship team issue M-14 NM in 7,62x51. In 30/06 that includes a M1917, 1903, 1903A3 and M1 Garand. As to why cause I wanted too and I could. That would be the same reason I killed one with my original 1873 Winchester in 44/40. That was the same reason I killed two with a 1873 Colt in 45 Colt. Still want to take one with a 1903A4 one of these days. That would be a copy since I don't have an actual 1903A4.

    Knowing your shootings or trailing limitations will eliminate losses. I am color blind and my trailing ability is only marginally better than Stevie Wonder so I select my shots with care.

    I have had some very challenging recoveries due to using a 270 Win, 338 Win Mag and 375 H&H Mag with bullets designed for much heavier game and yes in each case had I been using my 22-250 or 220 Swift they would not have made it 20 yards after the ONE shot liquified their lungs. In the case of 4 x 4 muley the first shot was a double lung with a 270 Win loaded with 175 Bitterroot bullets at 220 yards. That was followed by two more in about a 5 inch group all double lungs with zero expansion. The deer went 3/4 of a mile but was too weak to cross the fence so I was able to catchup to it and end it with a 4th shot through the neck.

    Those bullets had been given to me after I loaded some for a buddy going on a moose. I did not own a 270 at the time but after I purchased a nice pre-64 Model 70 in 270 I used them since I had them. That was the first deer I shot with the 270. After that I switched to deer appropriate bullet and had zero issues with the 270.

    From 1970 through 2005 I hunted on 5 1/2 sections of very deer rich land. The land owner wanted every one shot off since he would have a couple hundred deer in his feed lot every winter. Normally he had 20 to 30 hunters. We would stand hunt in the morning and have deer drives after 10 am so I have seen a lot more deer shot than I have shot. The land owner required that you have a bonus tag or two so 50 plus deer were harvested on his land every year. A couple of years it was over 80. The land owner also required that you hunt the Friday opener and both Saturdays and Sundays of the season even if you filled your tags the first day. If you couldn't make it he had to tell him why.

    In the evening everyone one would gather at the shop and have a couple of beers and tell the tails of the day. You got to look at everyone's deer and if the temps were right a lot of them got hung in the barn. Some with the hide on and some with no hide so you could easily look at shot placement and bullet performance.

    The land owners out of state bother-in-law used a 300 Weatherby loaded with 125 grain Ballistic Tips at above book velocities. He didn't care for deer meat so he didn't care about the excessive destruction that combo did to a deer but that combo was the least shot placement sensitive combo I have ever seen. He shot at anything and everything he saw. Legally he could have two tags but he also had two for his wife and the one or two from the land owner. Worked for him but he was my definition of a slob hunter on his deer hunting methods but the same can be said for me when it comes to shooting coyotes. Hunting in cattle county you are expected to take any safe shot at a coyote and yes I have taken shots way beyond my ability to ensure a clean one shot one kills and I have missed many and wounded many coyotes with multitude of calibers.

    A good friend has camera's in his calving pastures. He runs about 500 head and this spring he lost about $20,000 dollars on camera due to coyote killing calves so yes coyotes are not hunted with the same standards that I use for deer but that exemplifies shooting beyond your abilities to ensure a clean one shot kill is the primary cause of lost animals. Few would argue that a 220 Swift or a .243 is inadequate of coyotes yet I have lost a bunch of yotes with both yet I have never lost a deer with one. Only difference is shot selection. In the 70's and 80's I tried lots of different combo's to minimize pelt damage. Lost a bunch trying to use FMJ's. Yes, I take marginal and beyond marginal shots on yotes. I never take a marginal shot on big game unless is trying to anchor someone else's wound animal.

    I don't count my using too tough a a bullet as bullet failure. I view that as a bullet selection failure and that is on me. I have only seen one actual bullet failure. That was with a 30/06 using 150 grain mid 50's vintage Herter's bullets. Three broadside chest hits and the bullet blew up on the surface. Only very small fragment made it into the lungs. It was raining hard and I was in the truck with the shooter/land owner.

    After my dad had open heart surgery I loaded him some 125 grain Ballistic Tips at about 2,400 FPS for a low recoil load. He dropped a very nice buck out of the tree stand and it went straight down and appeared dead. As he was getting down from the stand it came around and took off. On inspection of where in went straight down we found he hit a piece of brush maybe 10 feet away from the deer. Maybe a heavier bullet would not have blown up but for that year dad needed a low recoil cartridge/load. This was just before dark and we trailed it until the batteries in the flashlights went dead. We did find it alive the next day and I was able to kill it the next day. The bullet blew on the brush and didn't penetrate the lung except for a couple of very small pieces that did not do enough damage to collapse it.

    I have yet to see a deer with both lungs destroyed go any distance. I have seen deer with the bottom of their heart blown off go incredible distances.
    I stopped reading the post at this

    I did need two shots with a 22-250 on a running Antelope after a buddy did a gut shot with his 30/06 at about 100 yards. I was just along to help since it was his first Antelope hunt. I was hunting coyotes only but he had told me if he cripples one to back him up. I didn't shot until he was empty. First shot I didn't lead enough and my 22-250 gut hit was no more effective than his. Second shot took out both lungs and that was effective and it went tail over nose. That was about 350 long paces.

    it shows the difference in you and I and the respect we have for the animals we harvest. Sounds like your buddy sure needs some practice if hes gut shooting at a 100 yards. Also i hope you had a tag because if you didnt you broke the law. Also were talking deer here. A good sized whitetail is twice the body weight of an antelope and a mule deer can go 3 times the size. Its like comparing a mule deer to an elk.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 07-05-2021 at 07:07 AM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    I stopped reading the post at this

    I did need two shots with a 22-250 on a running Antelope after a buddy did a gut shot with his 30/06 at about 100 yards. I was just along to help since it was his first Antelope hunt. I was hunting coyotes only but he had told me if he cripples one to back him up. I didn't shot until he was empty. First shot I didn't lead enough and my 22-250 gut hit was no more effective than his. Second shot took out both lungs and that was effective and it went tail over nose. That was about 350 long paces.

    it shows the difference in you and I and the respect we have for the animals we harvest. Sounds like your buddy sure needs some practice if hes gut shooting at a 100 yards. Also i hope you had a tag because if you didnt you broke the law. Also were talking deer here. A good sized whitetail is twice the body weight of an antelope and a mule deer can go 3 times the size. Its like comparing a mule deer to an elk.
    Yes I broke the law in that case. I don't believe in letting an animal suffer if it can be avoided with coyotes being an exception for the stated reasons. That was in the 1980 when I was doing a lot of coyote hunting and while I would never take that shot at an unwounded deer or antelope I did shot at lot of coyotes well beyond my abilities so shooting a half speed hunched up gut shot Antelope moving across a cut oats field off the hood of the truck was not that challenging. My buddy was able to sneak within about a hundred yard and he was shooting off hand.

    I did miss most of the running coyotes but did get enough to make it worthwhile since a good pelt would sell for $80. And yes I have wounded coyotes with lots of calibers including 30/06 and 338 Win Mag. That was the point of the post. Even small animals can be wounded with large calibers if the placement is poor.

    As to my buddie he was my college roommate and your are correct he was not a very good shot at that time. His dad passed away when he was young and I mom didn't allow firearms in her house but she did give him his dad's Browning BAR and a Browning Citori when he turned 18. I took him trap shooting his time, I took him pheasant hunting his first time and his first big game hunt. That was the Antelope hunt. He got drawn I didn't. Later he developed into a good hunter but the reality is most hunters are not very good shots and most hunter tend to shot beyond their abilities.

    As to MY respect for game animals I can HONESTLY state I have lost 1 out of about 60 with a bow. That was my first big game animal (deer) in 1970. I was 10 years old. With firearms and all big game animals the total is around 300 and I lost one in the 80's. It was a deer with 30/06. Found blood and hair but no deer.

    Between rifle, handgun, muzzleloader and bow two lost game animals out of about 360 total fair chase animals. That does not include the cripples put of of their misery. Not perfect but better than most. What's your loss percentage?????????

    Out of respect for the animals I have broken the law many times and with continue to do so. As a kid I worked at a gas station in a very rural area. The wrecker had a 22 rifle or a single shot shogun in it to dispatch road hit animals. Horse's and cattle were legal but not game animals, however, the local LE OK'ed putting game animals out of their suffering. That didn't change the fact it was against the law. Same for finding wounded animals. I put them out of the misery and yes it's against the law but I am willing to take that chance OUT OF RESCPECT for the animal. Last one was as road hit antelope in WY a few years back. It was crawling in the ditch with a broken back or two broken back legs. Nearest town was many 30 mile away. It was not season and of course I didn't have a tag and it was highly illegal but I did put it out of it's misery. It had a trophy class set of horns but they were left since that was the RIGHT thing to do. Too be 100% clear I respect limiting an animals suffering more than I respect the law..................

    Unlike you I do read what you have posted and I will gladly compare MY respect to animals to YOURS any day of the week. Not reading before commenting does make a statement about yourself self and it's not a favorable one. Kind of the same for your projecting what others might be going.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 07-05-2021 at 08:10 PM.
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  6. #106
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    As to the animal size amongst my Inuit friends the .223 is very commonly used for seals, Caribou and Polar Bear. They do have a health respect of Grizzly /Brown bear and 30/06 through .338 come out for that.

    I also have a medium level Celebrity friend that is native American. He has a very significant gun collection and he can afford anything he wants. He hunts Elk and Moose on the Res. off of horse back using the M-16 he carried in Viet Nam. He rides as close as he can and 2 or 3 quick shots into the lungs with 55 grain ball works well for him. By quick I am referring to a short burst. Not trying to make the case that it is right but that doesn't change the fact that lots of people do use 22 Cal for large game.

    I have posted both of these many times on this forum but my father-in-law grew up 7 day's walk for a very small town in Alaska. He thought the 25-20 was the best moose rifle ever. He was 14 before he got to go to town. They had a 303 boltgun, a 25-20 lever, 22 single shot and a single shot 12 gauge. They would wait for a moose to feed in the garden and they would put a couple of 25-20 into the lungs. The moose would continue eating and they would watch till it started getting wobbly and they would chase it out of the garden so the gut pile was not in the garden. If they used the 303 the moose would run a long ways and they would have to hand carry the meat back so for them the 25-20 was their moose gun. He was not a gun guy and he didn't know if they have anything other than FMJ ball for the 303.

    Friend of my dad's was tasked with shooting deer for the family table weekly in the late 20's, 30's and 40's with a 22 rimfire. He got a beating if he used more than 1 round per deer. He only got beat a couple of times. He never keep track but he figure he killed well over 500 deer with a 22 rimfire and he lost very few.

    My Inuit friends that shoot polar bear with the .223 put one or two shots into the lungs and wait 10 or 15 minutes and drive their sled up to the bear and skin it.

    The point is most of this is far from what sport hunters consider ethical but the Inuit's are mostly subsistence hunters and they do what works for them and they tend to use smaller calibers than sport hunter. It still mostly comes down to proper shot placement.

    I have yet to see a challenging recovered animal that was not due to poor shot placement or bullets that didn't expand. Before the recovery most were claimed perfect hits. After skinning not so much.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 07-05-2021 at 07:57 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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  7. #107
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    i watched the way they hunt with there 223s they take a boat and catch the animal in the water and drive right up to it and shoot it in the head. Hardly hunting and hardly a fair way to rate what is powerful enough for what your hunting. Just answer one question and we can end this.

    What advantage is there to you grabbing a 223 when you have a more powerful gun thats proper for the job. Its kind of like trying to build a home with a jewelers hammer and a buck saw. Sure you could do it but theres proper tools for the job and most of us have them in our tool box. Because of ars i have more 223s then any other caliber. But i have at least a dozen good rifles for deer sized game. If you limit it to two hundred yards i could add a few more. I just dont get the "Im so good i can do it with a spitball or slingshot" train of thought.

    Then to come on a fourm and brag on it where theres not shooters with little or no experience killing deer that would think by some of the posts here that they should go out and buy a 223 because it (like some said) kills like lightning. I really dont care what you hunt with. Thats your business. Dont care if you run them down on foot and jump on there backs and knife them. But you arent going to tell me that a 22 centerfire is a deer rifle. Its actually illegal in many states. Funny on here. Many experienced casters and loaders search for the ideal caliber and bullet to MAKE SURE they cleanly kill an animal. Very seldom recomending the absoulute smallest caliber and lightest bullet but will turn around in a post like this and claim if i cant kill a deer at 300 yards with a 22 i need to practice my shooting. Whats next someone saying there ruger lcp with cast lfns is a great deer hunting load which by the way WOULD kill a deer too if the stars aligned. Does that make it a good gun to grab on opening day when you have two 44 mags sitting in the safe. JUST COMMON SENSE. That is unless you have something to prove or want to brag to your buddys. Im out of this one. You do what you want. Me? Ill use the real world experience i have to do what i want and to recomend REAL deer hunting rifles and calibers when the question is asked by someone who needs REAL advice.

  8. #108
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    When the 22 Savage HP came out, it got a horrible rep as a deer rifle. Varmint bullets for broadside shots just left huge, not fatal wounds. Better bullets for task, shot placement and it's OK. Nothing new here. be safe, have fun

  9. #109
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    Well said Lloyd. And I'm out of it too.

  10. #110
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    Agree M-Tecs
    there are as many ways to hunt and kill as there are people
    just because you don't like the way one person or group hunts
    don't make it any better or worse than any other type or method of hunting
    results are what matter up north their lives depend on it
    it's not like here where its a sport it's survival and that is a whole different matter
    like the man said leave me to my own devices it's my business and proper in my book
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by white eagle View Post
    Agree M-Tecs
    there are as many ways to hunt and kill as there are people
    just because you don't like the way one person or group hunts
    don't make it any better or worse than any other type or method of hunting
    results are what matter up north their lives depend on it
    it's not like here where its a sport it's survival and that is a whole different matter
    like the man said leave me to my own devices it's my business and proper in my book
    Agreed yet for some it has to be their way one or no way. You simply asked
    Quote Originally Posted by white eagle View Post
    In a recent post on the use of the 30 carbine for deer got me thinking
    if the 30 carbine is such a good deer slayer my 220 swift should be like
    a bolt from the blue on a unsuspecting whitetail
    What say you
    Everyone that had ACTUAL experience with 220 Swift stated that on an unsuspecting whitetail with the proper shot placement and bullet it was effective. Nothing more.

    No one claimed the 220 Swift is the end all be all deer cartridge or recommend it for an inexperienced hunter. One person repeatedly screams you must use the most effective cartridge period!!!!!! That would leave out the archer's, original older rifles and handgun hunters yet reality is all can be very effective used within their limitations. The 30-378 Weatherby and or the 300 Ultra Mag with lighter explosive bullets are proably the most effective deer killers in a shoulder fired firearm. They basically do the same to a deer that the 220 Swift does to a prairie dog. Very effective but very destructive. From actually witnessing what a 300 Weatherby loaded with the 125 Ballistic Tips at above book velocities does I want no part of that. The off quarter is gone and the distance the bloodshot meat extends is beyond wasteful.

    Effective is effective. If you don't lose any deer with a 223, 220 Swift or a 30 Carbine it's not my place to tell you that you are your wrong or insinuate that you are a liar or a slob hunter for using a cartridge that has more limitation than some other cartridges. Unlike some I respect OTHERS experience and understand what works for some doesn't work for other. Like Dirty Harry said “A man’s gotta know his limitations”.

    Kind of funny how some want you to respect their experience yet they will not return the favor.

    Nor was it ever asked what cartridge you would recommend for a new shooter? The point of this thread and the subsequent answers was to address the OP question of a 220 Swift for deer and nothing more.

    I also do find it interesting that a man that claims too shoot close to 70 deer a year with crop depredation permits is criticizing my Inuit friends for subsistence hunting. For the most part they are not sport hunting. They are doing the same as the farmer or ranch does when he slaughters a cow or a pig with a 22LR. Also the claim that all the hunting is out of a boat is not even remotely true.

    I still do some centerfire rifle hunting but reality is a standing deer under 300 yards stands ZERO chance of surviving if I decide to pull the trigger with any of my so called effective cartridges. I much prefer archery, handguns, older original rifles or muzzleloader since the game does stand somewhat of a chance. I have been after the same archery buck for the past three years with no luck. With an "effective" rifle I could have taken him dozens of times. How sporting is that???????

    For the next three rifle hunts I want take a deer with are my new 416 Rigby, a new to me Winchester 1885 manufactured in 1907 in 30 Army, and a Winchester 1885 manufactured in 1903/4 in 32-40. I also have a line on a Winchester 1885 original rebarreled to 225 Winchester. If I get it I will take a deer with it at some point.

    A rancher friend of mine has been using his Win M70 in 225 Win. purchased new in 1964 for deer with great effectiveness on multiple deer per year since 1964 and yes he has many other rifles and calibers he can pick from but the only time they come out is when he goes moose or elk hunting. Never hunted deer with him but I have hunted coyotes with him and I don't ever remember him missing a standing coyote ever. I do remember being in his skinning shed drooling over some of the 180 class bucks he took with his .225 Win. These are ND river bottom bucks that fielded dressed will hit 250 pounds on an actual scale. I do respect his opinion and actual results greatly. He taught me to skin coyotes and a lot about coyote calling and hunting. Same for the local Game Warden that opened my eyes about the effectiveness of the 22-250 on deer with proper placement. At the time he was a National and North American PPC champion and he was about as handy with a rifle.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 07-06-2021 at 10:52 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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