220 swift for deer

[David2011]

Clearly, some here have profound opinions regarding an appropriate caliber for deer hunting. So do I. I maintain that a 220 Swift, 22-250 or 223 is such a caliber. IF you load it with an appropriate bullet, and that is the key! Varmint bullets should not be used on deer, I think we all agree on that. But, load a Speer 62 gr. Gold Dot, or any other bonded-core bullet, or on of the partition bullets, now you've got something. Even the cup & core Speer 70 gr. soft point is an excellent deer bullet at 22-250 velocities. It's about the BULLET! All this banter about large caliber, small caliber, magnums or non-managnums is just that; Banter! Even with an '06, you need a good bullet, not a varmint bullet. And now someone will respond and say how many deer they've killed with their '06 using 110 gr. HP's......UGGHH!

The topic was about "Is the Swift a good deer cartridge", well, "YES, it is", when you load it properly. I'm not sorry if that offends someones sensitivities. If you're not responsible enough to pass on "iffy" shots, please get out of the woods!

This is probably the best answer so far. There’s no substitute for choosing the correct bullet. A soft point that will penetrate deeply will work just fine on deer. Sure, shot placement is important but that’s true of all calibers. Personally, I would use a heavier bullet at a reduced velocity for the cartridge. My opinions are based on what I’ve learned from hunting with a .22-250 and one bad choice of shooting a big sow with a varmint bullet out of a .223.

I shot the sow in the head but the lightly jacketed bullet blew apart on the skull instead of getting to the brain. That’s the last time I shot at a hardened animal with a light bullet. The .22-250 with a 55 grain jacketed soft point had no trouble dropping a 120 pound or so pig with a single shoulder shot; no running. Penetration was enough to destroy the off-side shoulder joint.

[wallacem]

I killed 40 deer with my 22-250 using a 55gr soft point bullet, and never learned how to trail a deer till I changed calibers. It was amazing. Wallace in Ga

[white eagle]

I plan on using a 62 gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullet
or Barnes 62 Gr Tipped Triple shock bullet
I have heavier bullets but the twist in my rifle can only handle this weight

[Duckdog]

Don't own one, but I have absolutely no doubt that it will put a deer on the ground if the shot is right. The earlier post was spot on with the 22LR. It will also dump a deer in short order if the shot is good. When times were tough, it had nothing about proving something, it was about putting meat on the table and the caliber really didn't matter much. pick your shot and enjoy the meat.

[Ramjet-SS]

In a recent post on the use of the 30 carbine for deer got me thinking
if the 30 carbine is such a good deer slayer my 220 swift should be like
a bolt from the blue on a unsuspecting whitetail
What say you

Like the hammer of Thor I have taken 6 deer with a 220 Swift using a Barnes x bullet. They drop hard and I have never had one get up. All shot angled away or broadside. Distances from 25 yards to 170 yards. Same effect on each one. Like any gun shot placement is key. But it’s very effective on whitetail deer. Internal damage in those deer was massive the lungs generally were mush. Shot through bone on two of them no issues on the light bones of whitetail using the Barnes X bullet.

[1hole]

In a recent post on the use of the 30 carbine for deer got me thinking
if the 30 carbine is such a good deer slayer my 220 swift should be like
a bolt from the blue on a unsuspecting whitetail
What say you

What I say is sure, it will work on deer, BUT, like with the puny little .30 Carbine, "Why?"

I live in the south western Smokies of N.C. I once knew an old mountain man who kept his family in national forest venison year round with a cheap bolt action .22 single shot using .22 short ammo because it was quiet. When he put that tiny bullet in a deer's ear hole it was as deadly as a .50 machine gun round. It was 100% effective - for him - but he used it as matter of necessity; he did NOT think his .22 short was a "deer cartridge!"

So, yeah, the Swift will do the job but we have much better deer cartridges and bullets than any .22.

[centershot]

So, yeah, the Swift will do the job but we have much better deer cartridges and bullets than any .22.

Those of us that use .22 centerfires for deer know this isn't true. My personal experience killing deer over 39 years tells me that my .223 Remington, loaded with Federal Fusion ammunition, is as capable as my 12 & 20 gauge slug guns, my 30-06, my 30-30, my 243 and several others I've hunted with. Notice that I said "My personal experience". As in, I went out and actually did it! If you haven't actually done it, you do not speak from experience, only opinion. Facts are what matter. The fact is, a properly loaded high speed .22 centerfire is a very capable round. Don't believe me? OK. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion doesn't stand up to the facts. I rest my case.

[M-Tecs]

Those of us that use .22 centerfires for deer know this isn't true. My personal experience killing deer over 39 years tells me that my .223 Remington, loaded with Federal Fusion ammunition, is as capable as my 12 & 20 gauge slug guns, my 30-06, my 30-30, my 243 and several others I've hunted with. Notice that I said "My personal experience". As in, I went out and actually did it! If you haven't actually done it, you do not speak from experience, only opinion. Facts are what matter. The fact is, a properly loaded high speed .22 centerfire is a very capable round. Don't believe me? OK. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion doesn't stand up to the facts. I rest my case.

Well stated. I have long since given up trying to convince people that are basing their opinions off of the writings of others or their lack of shooting ability. As a kid in the late 60's and thru the 70's I read every gun magazine published. I believed all of it. The more actual experience I gained the less and less I believed them as gospel. Figured out the goal was to sell product and not much more. At the time they were pushing the newer magnums. If you didn't have a magnum you were under gunned in their view. It was 180 degrees different from how the 6.5 Creedmoor is being pushed currently.

I used to party hunt in a large group and I have seen deer shot to pieces go an incredible distance. I have yet to see a deer double lunged that wasn't an easy recovery providing the bullets expanded.

The local game warden was the first to open my eyes. He used a 22-250 with 55 grain soft points and never lost any of the many deer he killed. I was with him when he killed a couple. I have also been told the 243 was the worst crippling round on the market. Actual experience in killing 50 or 60 deer with a 243 is that I never came close to losing a deer shot with it. Same for the couple of dozen killed with a .223, 22-250 or 220 swift. The only time I every came close to losing deer were due to poor shot placement or using a bullet designed for much heavier game. That was in a 270 Win, 338 Win and a 375 H&H. The poor shot placement was with a 30/06.

With a gun I have killed 200 plus and with a bow around 60. I lost one with the gun and one with the bow. Both due to poor shot placement and 100% my fault.

[Tripplebeards]

I would think a 60 grain partition would work great. Imo im guessing the hydrostatic shock from an extremely fast round along with a rapidly expanding bullet should drop an animal pretty quick ...if not on the spot.

[Texas by God]

I have a few 22-250 cartridges loaded with the 45 gr Barnes TSX @4000 fps. I've been meaning to try one of those on a deer. I expect no drama if and when I do. If I don't have a clean shot, I won't pull the trigger.
Same with every gun I hunt with.
The .224 TTH is an interesting deer cartridge thought up by guys that live to take trophy bucks. Basically a fast twist 22-257; I wanted one for a time- until one day it sunk in that the regular 22-250 had never failed me.....

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[358429]

What I say is sure, it will work on deer, BUT, like with the puny little .30 Carbine, "Why?"

I live in the south western Smokies of N.C. I once knew an old mountain man who kept his family in national forest venison year round with a cheap bolt action .22 single shot using .22 short ammo because it was quiet. When he put that tiny bullet in a deer's ear hole it was as deadly as a .50 machine gun round. It was 100% effective - for him - but he used it as matter of necessity; he did NOT think his .22 short was a "deer cartridge!"

So, yeah, the Swift will do the job but we have much better deer cartridges and bullets than any .22.

22 short is a 29 grain bullet at 800-1100 feet per second muzzle velocity. 22-250, it's 3000 feet per second faster, with heavier bullets, is it not?

Those two cartridges are completely opposite as far as power level and effect, are concerned.

I suppose if you are an excellent marksman, skillful hunter, whitetail whisperer, then using a rifle ten times more powerful shouldn't present any problems!


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[Lloyd Smale]

There are folks who need to prove something....or maybe they do not have a better option. I will leave it that.

I would have no issue with using a .220, but I know my abilities and my way of hunting.

I agree. I dont think ive ever heard anyone on here saying the 30 carbine was a great deer rifle. Some like even me will tell it got it done under the right circumstances. If your asking if a 220 will kill a deer your asking a question you already know the answer to. Of course it will. Like others said LOTS of them have been put down with 22lr. Would I use one? Maybe for something like crop damage shooting where i have the option to wait for the perfect shot and if i dont get it i can just pass and wait for the next one.

Question really is if your hunting deer and have one tag for the year and the buck of a lifetime comes out at 300 yards are you capable of a head shot at that range? Would you not regret leaving your real deer rifle at home just so you can brag you are so talented you can kill deer with a straw and a spit ball. I know if that happens to me id sure hope i had a real deer rifle with me not a ground hog gun.

Only thing that would make me feel worse at that time then having to pass on that deer would be to put a tiny bullet in its gut and have it run off with no blood trail and suffer for hours laying in the swamp and getting ate by the coyotes. But yup it still will kill a deer. For the most part there smaller then a man and the 556 has killed a few of them even with ball bullets. but if you really dont know be careful taking advice. Most guys ive ran into and give the hammer of thor speech usually fail to tell you about those ones they wounded and never recovered.

Same with the 22lr cheerleaders. I kind of think of the 22lr thing like this. If i had to put down my dog who i love dearly and he had to be 50 yards away and i was given the choice between a 22lr and a 3006 to kill him you couldnt put a gun to my head and make me shoot him with a 22lr. I kill alot of deer. So many that some think its unethical but if anything through the years i have alot more feeling for the animal and the suffering i might make it suffer. Given a choice between blowing the whole front end to mush and having one shot with a pop gun run and have to track it and put it down but not ruining a scrap of meat ill that dead right there messed up one any day. But some dont care and thats there business.

[centershot]

Lloyd, go back and read post #87 again.

[Lloyd Smale]

read it and really dont agree. If you shoot 50 deer with a 223 and 50 with a 3006 you surely will see the 06 is much more capable. What 1hole said is absolute fact. If it kills as well as an o6 then why not use it on elk or moose. What i does is kill with very precises shots with no room for error and shoot enough of the even with perfect shots and a bullet will fail or a deer will get just far enough more away from you that you loose it. Aint my first rodeo. Ive shot hundreds of deer with about every caliber and have a pretty good grasp on how a deer reacts with differnt levels of power. If you dont agree with me fine. Come back and we will readdress it when youve shot 500 or more deer and can tell me you never lost one because of the pop gun you insist on championing.

Ive never once told myself in the field i wish i would have brought a smaller gun. I have said the opposite. I have to ask what you feel you need to prove. Is it your only gun? Is it the most powerful gun you have. I love my 22-250 its a tack driver and sents little animals flying in peices. But ive got a safe full of better deer rifles and see no sense in trying to shoot something with the smallest gun i can. I actually HAVE DONE IT and wasnt impressed. I wonder how many here bragging on them have only killed 10 or 15 deer and 90 percent of them in a farm field at 80 yards and get there opinion from that.

Even then if there was a way to prove it id bet my house if you shot even 15 with one youve lost one that ran off. You might have said "oh i missed" or walked up and didnt find a blood trail and then said "oh i missed" so you wouldnt have to admit to yourself your wrong. I am entitled to my opinion and ive killed enough to would have to say my opinion is legit. But all this said ill go back again to 1holes post. he summed it up real well with one word "WHY"

I can also tell you what the farmers son on the farm we crop damage uses. A 223 single shot h&r. I asked him why and you know what he said. WHen im in the tractor i only shoot the ones in the parts of the field i already harvested. Either it dumps them where they are or they run out of the field where i dont have to get down out of the tractor and bother with them. He just wants them dead. They take money out of his pocket. He said he used his 06 for a while but to many that did run didnt make 50 yards and were right where he wanted to harvest. Now ive shot somewhere close to a 1000 deer over the last 15 years out there. Hes probably killed three times that in his life. Come deer season when hes hunting trophy bucks he has his o6 and when he goes elk hunting he takes his 300 mag. Use what you want but this isnt my first rodeo. We will have to agree to disagree

[444ttd]

i shot a doe several years ago with my 22-250ai and i think 75gr hornady a max. the doe was about 50+/- yards from me and i put the hornady into its brain. it was my my only deer hunt with the the 22 cal. (sigh) i did it (sigh) and i ain't gonna do it again.

my dad thinks he kill a deer with the 30 carbine. the spot he hunts will only let him about 50 yards. so long range shooting isn't a factor. he shoots a deer in lungs/heart area(mostly behind the shoulder shot). he did kill deer with the 30-40 krag, 30-06, 7mm-08, 7 mauser and 7x30 waters. its a goal that he sets on himself to kill a deer using the 30 carbine.

150 yards is a goal i set on cast boolits on hunting deer. so far, it has werked fer me.

[M-Tecs]

Even then if there was a way to prove it id bet my house if you shot even 15 with one youve lost one that ran off. You might have said "oh i missed" or walked up and didnt find a blood trail and then said "oh i missed" so you wouldnt have to admit to yourself your wrong. I am entitled to my opinion and ive killed enough to would have to say my opinion is legit.

First not a single person on this thread is claiming the 220 Swift is the ideal deer caliber. They are pointing out that with a properly placed bullet of the proper design it can be quite effective.

Second if you are shooting at deer and missing completely you are taking shots beyond your ability. That is on you not the cartridge.

As to knowing if any ran off that is every easy to prove when you fire one shot and you recover one deer and yes every deer I have shot at with a 22 Cal. centerfire has been one shot one kill. When can I collect your house? Most between 200 and 300yards. That is part of shot selection and knowing your abilities. Also anything over a hundred yards you should hear the bullet impact.

I did need two shots with a 22-250 on a running Antelope after a buddy did a gut shot with his 30/06 at about 100 yards. I was just along to help since it was his first Antelope hunt. I was hunting coyotes only but he had told me if he cripples one to back him up. I didn't shot until he was empty. First shot I didn't lead enough and my 22-250 gut hit was no more effective than his. Second shot took out both lungs and that was effective and it went tail over nose. That was about 350 long paces.

Yes you are entitled to your opinion same as everyone else, however, you are not entitled to tell others that their actually experiences are not valid.

As to the why lots of reasons. Why do people archery hunt? or use a handgun? or a muzzle loader the current trend of the highpower air rifles? All of the are very effective if used properly. If not used properly that is on the user not the weapon. Personally after forty years of NRA HighPower competition shooting and avid prairie dog shooting I find shooting deer or other big game animals with a highpower rifle boring. I still find the rifle hunting enjoyable but when it comes to the shot if is a forgone conclusion as to the outcome before I pull the trigger.

In the 90's I wanted to kill a deer with ever major US Service cartridge rifle so I did. That was with a Trapdoor Springfield in 45/70, an 1898 Krag in 30/40, an M1 Carbine in 30 Carbine (had to borrow one since I have never owned one) and the 5.56 was with a real M16 with a selector block. Same as with the M-16 I used my Marksmanship team issue M-14 NM in 7,62x51. In 30/06 that includes a M1917, 1903, 1903A3 and M1 Garand. As to why cause I wanted too and I could. That would be the same reason I killed one with my original 1873 Winchester in 44/40. That was the same reason I killed two with a 1873 Colt in 45 Colt. Still want to take one with a 1903A4 one of these days. That would be a copy since I don't have an actual 1903A4.

Knowing your shootings or trailing limitations will eliminate losses. I am color blind and my trailing ability is only marginally better than Stevie Wonder so I select my shots with care.

I have had some very challenging recoveries due to using a 270 Win, 338 Win Mag and 375 H&H Mag with bullets designed for much heavier game and yes in each case had I been using my 22-250 or 220 Swift they would not have made it 20 yards after the ONE shot liquified their lungs. In the case of 4 x 4 muley the first shot was a double lung with a 270 Win loaded with 175 Bitterroot bullets at 220 yards. That was followed by two more in about a 5 inch group all double lungs with zero expansion. The deer went 3/4 of a mile but was too weak to cross the fence so I was able to catchup to it and end it with a 4th shot through the neck.

Those bullets had been given to me after I loaded some for a buddy going on a moose. I did not own a 270 at the time but after I purchased a nice pre-64 Model 70 in 270 I used them since I had them. That was the first deer I shot with the 270. After that I switched to deer appropriate bullet and had zero issues with the 270.

From 1970 through 2005 I hunted on 5 1/2 sections of very deer rich land. The land owner wanted every one shot off since he would have a couple hundred deer in his feed lot every winter. Normally he had 20 to 30 hunters. We would stand hunt in the morning and have deer drives after 10 am so I have seen a lot more deer shot than I have shot. The land owner required that you have a bonus tag or two so 50 plus deer were harvested on his land every year. A couple of years it was over 80. The land owner also required that you hunt the Friday opener and both Saturdays and Sundays of the season even if you filled your tags the first day. If you couldn't make it he had to tell him why.

In the evening everyone one would gather at the shop and have a couple of beers and tell the tails of the day. You got to look at everyone's deer and if the temps were right a lot of them got hung in the barn. Some with the hide on and some with no hide so you could easily look at shot placement and bullet performance.

The land owners out of state bother-in-law used a 300 Weatherby loaded with 125 grain Ballistic Tips at above book velocities. He didn't care for deer meat so he didn't care about the excessive destruction that combo did to a deer but that combo was the least shot placement sensitive combo I have ever seen. He shot at anything and everything he saw. Legally he could have two tags but he also had two for his wife and the one or two from the land owner. Worked for him but he was my definition of a slob hunter on his deer hunting methods but the same can be said for me when it comes to shooting coyotes. Hunting in cattle county you are expected to take any safe shot at a coyote and yes I have taken shots way beyond my ability to ensure a clean one shot one kills and I have missed many and wounded many coyotes with multitude of calibers.

A good friend has camera's in his calving pastures. He runs about 500 head and this spring he lost about $20,000 dollars on camera due to coyote killing calves so yes coyotes are not hunted with the same standards that I use for deer but that exemplifies shooting beyond your abilities to ensure a clean one shot kill is the primary cause of lost animals. Few would argue that a 220 Swift or a .243 is inadequate of coyotes yet I have lost a bunch of yotes with both yet I have never lost a deer with one. Only difference is shot selection. In the 70's and 80's I tried lots of different combo's to minimize pelt damage. Lost a bunch trying to use FMJ's. Yes, I take marginal and beyond marginal shots on yotes. I never take a marginal shot on big game unless is trying to anchor someone else's wound animal.

I don't count my using too tough a a bullet as bullet failure. I view that as a bullet selection failure and that is on me. I have only seen one actual bullet failure. That was with a 30/06 using 150 grain mid 50's vintage Herter's bullets. Three broadside chest hits and the bullet blew up on the surface. Only very small fragment made it into the lungs. It was raining hard and I was in the truck with the shooter/land owner.

After my dad had open heart surgery I loaded him some 125 grain Ballistic Tips at about 2,400 FPS for a low recoil load. He dropped a very nice buck out of the tree stand and it went straight down and appeared dead. As he was getting down from the stand it came around and took off. On inspection of where in went straight down we found he hit a piece of brush maybe 10 feet away from the deer. Maybe a heavier bullet would not have blown up but for that year dad needed a low recoil cartridge/load. This was just before dark and we trailed it until the batteries in the flashlights went dead. We did find it alive the next day and I was able to kill it the next day. The bullet blew on the brush and didn't penetrate the lung except for a couple of very small pieces that did not do enough damage to collapse it.

I have yet to see a deer with both lungs destroyed go any distance. I have seen deer with the bottom of their heart blown off go incredible distances.

[white eagle]

the last deer I shot (last season) left not one speck of blood for 40 yds
the only reason I found that deer was I had to follow its track
before I saw any blood, oh yeah the deer was shot with a 30-06
my farthest tracking job was over a mile and followed track in snow this time
a speck of blood here and there all the way, shot with a 54 cal round ball
so size makes no difference in my book and anyone who does not make a diligent effort
to make certain a shot has missed has no business hunting

[M-Tecs]

the last deer I shot (last season) left not one speck of blood for 40 yds
the only reason I found that deer was I had to follow its track
before I saw any blood, oh yeah the deer was shot with a 30-06
my farthest tracking job was over a mile and followed track in snow this time
a speck of blood here and there all the way, shot with a 54 cal round ball
so size makes no difference in my book and anyone who does not make a diligent effort
to make certain a shot has missed has no business hunting

Yup. Agreed 100%

My one lost deer with a gun was with a 30/06.

This part is not directed at you just my personal observations the two most crippling deer cartridges I have seen have been the 30/30 and the 30/06. Where I hunted lots of people used 30/30 for the heavy woods deer drives. Some of those 30/30's had not been sighted in since grandpa had it. The 30/06 was by far the most common in the area and used by lots of people that only pulled the trigger shooting at deer. That is the user not the caliber. It still comes down to proper shot selection and shot placement.

[Tripplebeards]

The ones that say 243 are inadequate for coyotes deer don't pick the right bullet for the job.
..along with poor shot placement.
A 70 grain ballistic tip will almost cut a coyote in half loaded at 3650 fps if bone is hit. I've only had 2 coyotes out of way over a 100 plus not drop in its tracks using that bullet. Both were do to poor shot placement. One I tried to head shoot straight on looking at me around 60 yards and hit a hair low. I had the zeroed around 250 or 300 yards. I blew the bottom jaw completely off. I tracked it a good 150 yards and finished it off. I also had one spinner I hit to far back. I finished it off on a full rotation. Those bullets make a mess! I havent pulled the trigger on a deer yet but might have to give it a try this year. From all the reading a 95 grain nosler ballistic tip is king for dropping them on the spot or close to it. I have 90 grain nosler ballistic tips already loaded that will have to do. I've DRTd many of coyotes with the 90s loaded around 3350fps out my 26" 700 243.

[1hole]

.... Notice that I said "My personal experience". As in, I went out and actually did it! If you haven't actually done it, you do not speak from experience, only opinion. Facts are what matter. The fact is, a properly loaded high speed .22 centerfire is a very capable round. Don't believe me? OK. You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion doesn't stand up to the facts. I rest my case.

My first opinion of all that is ... well, you didn't read what I said, you just leaped to a conclusion of what you thought I was saying.

I did NOT say your Swift or my 22-250 won't kill deer, what I said is that I haven't done it and won't do it because I deer hunt in the real world, in the deep woods where there are leaves and twigs and even bigger stuff where scopes and dim light can make any shot iffy. And that makes using any high speed varmint bullet less effective than it could be with a heavier bullet. Like - high speed Cooper Minis will deflect off highway obstacles more than loaded concrete delivery trucks. (Okay, I haven't tried that for myself either but it is my strong opinion anyway. YMMV.) And I question how well a high speed .22 bullet will get past a glancing hit on a major leg bone.

I have taken a good number of deer with my .243. With the same hit, the end results duplicate what I get from my 7 mag, .308, .30-06 and .35 Rem. (and a few arrows too, but that's another story), but that's as small as I'm happy to go.

Bottom line, you may rest your case anywhere you feel comfortable but I think game deserves the most dependable rounds available.

So, sure, fast .22s are quite capable of killing deer like lightening under perfect conditions. Ditto the .22 rf. But we obviously have many much better hunting rounds for that so, other than an ego trip, what's the point of anyone using a ballistic midget on big game?

Snear and opine as you will but I, for one, do NOT consider any .22 round an ethical hunter's general use "deer cartridge." Seems most state game commissions agree with me.