trying to ID a chamber

[brian1]

I have several rifles chambered in 22-3000 or 22 R2 Lovell. I’m finally getting around to trying to make some ammo for them and shoot them. The chambers seem to vary, but I guess that’s normal for a non-SAAMI cartridge.

However, one of the rifles is pretty clearly not of the 22-3000/2R Lovell family at all, and I am thus far mystified as to what it is. It was sold to me by a highly reputable auction house as a "22-3000", but I think they made a mistake in identifying the caliber,

Other than the fact that this rifle came with a seating die that says 22-3000 and a Lyman sizing die that says 22-3000, I can find no markings or any other evidence that suggests this is a 22-3000 or 2R Lovell. The chamber cut for the rim is 0.444” diameter and 0.057” deep. Base diameter is 0.376”. Rim OD for the 25-20 SS parent case is 0.376”, so as you can imagine, any round based on the 25-20 SS is not going to work very well in there. I took a chamber casting, below is a picture of that next to my one and only vintage 22 2R Lovell round. They are similar, but the casting is clearly quite a bit bigger all over. I checked that the bore is .224”, so it is a 22 caliber center fire.

I have studied all my cartridge books, and I have been unable to find out what case this chamber is for. It’s definitely a bottleneck, so that also rules out 22-3000. 22-3000 is a tapered case, and the 2R Lovell is a bottleneck. It’s a bit too small for anything based on a 30-30 family case, like a 219 Zipper or Wasp. The only cartridges I could find with about a 0.440” diameter rim are things like 256 Win Mag, based off the 357 Magnum case, but they are slightly too large in both rim and base diameter, and way too short for this chamber (and wrong bullet diameter)

This is a list of the chamber dimensions:
Rim diameter .444
Rim thickness .057
Base diameter .376
Diameter before shoulder .360
Neck diameter .255
Case head to start of shoulder .1.279
COAL 1.689

This is my one and only 22 Lovell 2R round next to the chamber casting.


And here is the 22 Lovell R2 spec:


And this is the 22-3000 spec:

[Wilderness]

Wild!

NRA Illustrated Reloading Handbook p57 lists two cartridges with that body size - .30-30 Wesson & .32-30 Remington, both apparently longer than .357 Magnum, unlikely candidates for a .22 Wildcat.

There is a .38 Extra Long Center Fire (primed shells) listed in the 1916 Winchester catalog (facsimile) p185. No dimensions given.

.357 Maximum might do for a parent case.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Brian,

Sounds like a 222R.

AntiqueSledMan.

[smithnframe]

225 Winchester?

[Mr Hanssen]

Think AntiqueSledMan nailed it.
222 Rimmed.

[Mk42gunner]

As I was reading the description, I was thinking of a necked down .357 Max, but I think the .222R (or rimmed .222 Remington makes more sense.

I think Bertram used to import cases from Australia, or you might be able to use .357 max as a parent case.

I would compare measurements of your chamber cast with both a .222 Remington and the .222R. You might get lucky.

Robert

[brian1]

not 225 Win - I have them, and it's smaller than that. I will look at the 222 Rimmed. Of course, I don't have any ammo or brass in 222 Rimmed, even if that's it. I am starting to think seriously about rechambering it to .219 Donaldson Wasp. It should be very easy, as not a lot of material to remove. I already have 2 rifles in that, as well as plenty of brass, parent brass, ammo, dies. I'll compare what I have to 222R, though. Thanks for the tips, guys!

[Mk42gunner]

From the description, I am guessing this is a singe shot? It could have originally been converted to one of the .22-3000 based rounds and then when brass for that dried up it got rechambered, maybe a couple of times.

Might be wise to check the twist of the barrel while you are at it.

Good luck,

Robert

[brian1]

yes, it's a 1885 Winchester. Your theory sounds quite possible; I just wish I knew what it got rechambered to. Good idea on checking twist rate; I'll do that.

[brian1]

I haven't yet checked twist rate, and still need to, but I did order some 222 Rimmed brass from Midway. Perfect fit in this chamber. Thanks for the tip on 222R. Very expensive brass, but not all that outlandish, considering what more mainstream brass is going for these days - like people paying $45 plus shipping for 20 fired cases of 6.5 PRC. I'll check twist rate, and load up a couple rounds and see how it goes.

[papalote]

I have a 22-357max. I just use a 222 Remington sizer. It’s a little shorter neck than a 222. Use it in a contender.

[Mk42gunner]

Not real sure, but I think you can load the .222R with a set of .222 Remington dies and a shell holder for the .38/.357.

Robert

[brian1]

Yep, 222 dies & .38 shell holder. I loaded up a few and fired them. The fired cases are only a few thousandths larger than before firing, as expected & should be, so it's a perfect fit. I now have 40 222R cases (Midway was making me buy them one bag max per order), and I also plan to try to make some from 357 Max. I already make 256 Win Mag from 357 Mag, so it's really just a matter of taking the neck down a bit more. The neck may be a bit short, but I'll see how it goes. Thanks again for the tips on the 222R.

[papalote]

I make mine from 357 max. They work just fine.

[Mk42gunner]

In the for what its worth department, the original AA 1680 and a Hornady 50 grain SX were an unbeatable combo in my first .222 Remington. A model 788.

Robert