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Thread: Question on Cast Slugs

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

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    I see no reason it wouldn't be safe, considering he follows basic load data. How's is any different than stacking filler, nitros, or felt wads to fill empty space?

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master

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    If he replaces a cushion leg with hard card it effectively reduces volume at ignition. The cushion leg crushes as soon as ignition occurs resulting in a larger volume as powder starts to burn. No different really than seating boolits deeper than spec in a brass cartridge. At least if a plastic gas seal is used. If no plastic gas seal then there is considerable blow by so pressures run lower. How much lower?

    From my experience removing cushion leg and replacing with solid hard card wad column and over powder plastic gas seal, I got sticky extraction. Without pressure testing gear hard to say for sure but like I said, comparing short hull data to normal hull data it appears to me that the solid wad column produces same pressure with less powder charge or higher pressure with same powder charge as a full length hull and cushion leg wad.

    YMMV

    Longbow

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    I have a few questions regarding slugs.

    1. With the Russian slugs and Azot wads, do you seat the wad so that last little step on the wad goes up into the slug?? I have seen pictures, and heard tales of it Both ways. Which is correct?? When I try to seat mine full depth, so that the last little step is forced up into the slug, the slug skirts crack. (Soft lead.) That step measures about .009" larger than the i.d. of the slug.

    2. Lee Drive Key slugs. One of Lee's recipes calls for Federal 12S0 wads. I couldn't find any, so I bought 12S4 wads, figuring I could just trim the petals. Are those petals thicker on the 12S4 wads?? Because my soft lead cast Lee 7/8 oz. slugs in the 12S4 wads cannot possibly be pushed through the forcing cone of my H&R Pardner smooth bore. No way!! ???

    3. Lastly, the Lee drive key slugs are designed to be shot through a rifled barrel. Many find it tough to get good accuracy through smooth bores. Is it possible?? How?

    Oh, and news flash. There's been a re-design of the Azot wad by Svarog. They say not much changed. Got some of the new ones coming...

    Thanks guys, for any and all input!!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  4. #24
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    I have a few questions regarding slugs.

    1. With the Russian slugs and Azot wads, do you seat the wad so that last little step on the wad goes up into the slug?? I have seen pictures, and heard tales of it Both ways. Which is correct?? When I try to seat mine full depth, so that the last little step is forced up into the slug, the slug skirts crack. (Soft lead.) That step measures about .009" larger than the i.d. of the slug.

    2. Lee Drive Key slugs. One of Lee's recipes calls for Federal 12S0 wads. I couldn't find any, so I bought 12S4 wads, figuring I could just trim the petals. Are those petals thicker on the 12S4 wads?? Because my soft lead cast Lee 7/8 oz. slugs in the 12S4 wads cannot possibly be pushed through the forcing cone of my H&R Pardner smooth bore. No way!! ???

    3. Lastly, the Lee drive key slugs are designed to be shot through a rifled barrel. Many find it tough to get good accuracy through smooth bores. Is it possible?? How?

    Oh, and news flash. There's been a re-design of the Azot wad by Svarog. They say not much changed. Got some of the new ones coming...

    Thanks guys, for any and all input!!

    Vettepilot
    From my contacts in Russia, the Azot wads have been discontinued due to the availability of parts needed to fix their machines. And yes, you set them to the last step of the wad.


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  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Well, I guess that explains why they hadn't been available. But they've somehow gotten it figured out I guess, as I've got a batch coming from a different source in Russia, and Svarog is supposed to have them soon. That's great, because Svarog has them cheaper!! The ones I have coming now cost me 33 cents each with shipping!! Whoa!!

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Sorry, I can't quite tell for sure on your pic, the wad is seated up to the step?? Leaving a very slight gap at the bottom of the slug??

    Thanks for answering!!
    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vettepilot View Post
    Sorry, I can't quite tell for sure on your pic, the wad is seated up to the step?? Leaving a very slight gap at the bottom of the slug??

    Thanks for answering!!
    Vettepilot
    Some go all the way to the bottom. Some, there’s a slight gap. I noticed that when I pc slugs that uses the Azot wad, they tend to slip.

    Also, the Reloaders network sells a two piece aluminum collar that you place around the wad to keep it from collapsing as you seat the slug. They also sell a special seating die as well.


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  8. #28
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    I'm not a ballistics engineer and I dont just assume anything. if a shotgun load recipe calls for specific components, I make every effort to get the correct components. if I can't get them I move on to another load. I dont know how many bags of different wads I have accumulated trying out different loads though the years but its a bunch of them and there are still some I want to try but cannot find them. for me anyway I like the ability to cast my own slugs and will never buy pre casted slugs. and I do this just for fun, I'm not in a state that has any shotgun only limitations on hunting except for turkey. The folks at ballistic products are experts in everything related to reloading shotgun shells and are very helpful if you need certain stuff or even load data.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmbif View Post
    I'm not a ballistics engineer and I dont just assume anything. if a shotgun load recipe calls for specific components, I make every effort to get the correct components. if I can't get them I move on to another load. I dont know how many bags of different wads I have accumulated trying out different loads though the years but its a bunch of them and there are still some I want to try but cannot find them. for me anyway I like the ability to cast my own slugs and will never buy pre casted slugs. and I do this just for fun, I'm not in a state that has any shotgun only limitations on hunting except for turkey. The folks at ballistic products are experts in everything related to reloading shotgun shells and are very helpful if you need certain stuff or even load data.
    I’m working with Grant Frackler, the CEO from Ballistic Products, to develop more loads. The problem with these Azot wads is there’s no published data.

    That’s where I come in. I pressure test all my loads at home and share my data with others.


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  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    I made my own method of seating the Azot wads. I like my setup much better than the ones from Reloaders Network. I made up a set of their's too, but I like my system better.

    Readloader Network's stuff is rather pricey. Anyway, I make many of my own tools as a matter of course, and pride. Saves money, plus my tools are usually better. (Even if I do say so myself.)

    I tried to get Gualandi or Azot wads from BPI, but no deal. So I bought direct from Russia like all the other times I've bought. Again, Reloaders Network being too pricey.

    Vettepilot
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
    Benjamin Franklin. (A very wise man!)

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Here's what happens when I seat my wads so that they are fully seated, as far as possible, with the last little step forced up into the slug, and no gap at the bottom.

    Most all pictures you see of the slug/wad combo has them seated so that the last step is not seated up into the wad, and showing a gap of maybe 1/32" to 1/8" at the bottom of the slug. This is how the youtubers, such as Fortunecookie45LC do it too. (Not that that proves anything.)

    However, Svarog told me the slug should be seated fully.

    Hence, my question, and I'm still confused. :~(

    Pics also show slug I smashed with hammer to see how malleable they are. Slug was smashed nearly flat, and did not crack....

    Vettepilot
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_7189.jpg   IMG_7191.jpg  
    Last edited by Vettepilot; 10-10-2021 at 06:03 PM.
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  13. #33
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    First time I’ve seen this and I’ve loaded 100’s.

    Could it be your method of seating the slugs?


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  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Well, I've seated them my way, of course, the Reloader Network way, and several other ways; same result.

    Any info I can find, in the tutorial sense, says don't seat them that deep. That last hard plastic step measures .009" larger than the i.d. of the slug, and when forced up in there, it expands the skirt of the slug and cracks it.

    Reloader Network is aware of the problem. They even sent me some extra core pins to see if I could modify them to cast the slug i.d. a hair bigger in that area. Haven't gotten around to that yet.

    If you seat them as shown in this picture, which is what most people do, they don't crack. Some claim this is how they are supposed to be, citing BPI's DGS slugs as an example, which do have the gap like this.

    Vettepilot
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Screenshot_20211010-171630.jpg  
    "Those who sacrifice freedom for security, have neither."
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  15. #35
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    Something you's guys might be missing is that even if your slug is not fully seated onto the wad,,, it will be as soon as you pull the trigger.
    just the force of the powder charge igniting will force the wad home before the slug even starts to move. If you have seated it all the way then it will be seated farther in,,, due being spanked with a 11,000psi + hit. There will be no slack left.

    If there is any void at all, the wad will be forced into it. Period.

    Something to think about?

    Randy.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I hate to disagree Randy but that isn't what I found. Krakenfan69 sent me a bunch of Russian Paradox slugs with the Russian wads to test out. No matter what I tried I couldn't get the wads to seat right in. Mine looked just like Vettepilot's with a gap.

    I recovered some of those slugs shot into softish dirt/sand behind the target at 60 to 70 yards and they still have the gap and the skirt is in fine condition.

    I also have a recovered factory Gualandi slug with same type of wad and not only does it have a gap but the skirt expanded and crushed against the bore so that wad was pushing and swelling. Not sure if the cavity/wad geometry is the same there though. It looks just like the pic above... except it is factory Gualandi.

    Possibly the cavity is shorter in some of the Russian slugs?

    Longbow

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree with LB. if these aren’t seated, they’ll come apart in flight. Jeff from the YouTube channel Taofledermous noted that a few times during his high speed recordings of slugs attached to the Azot wads.

    I’ve had fliers where the slug hit followed by the impact of the wad close by.


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  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I didnt have any separate that I know of and accuracy was decent and consistent with no wild fliers but those wads didn't seat deeper at firing.

    I'll take pics and post them.

    Longbow

  19. #39
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    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
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    Yeah mine won't go all the way in no matter how hard I push on them. I figured the snout of the wad was too long and bottomed out in the back of the slug? If that's true then the only way to get the Wad to bottom out is to crush the snout into the base of the Slug.

    Maybe trimming the snout on the wad back a little would work?

    Randy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2219.jpg  
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 10-19-2021 at 01:43 PM.
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  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Recovered Paradox Slugs

    Here they are:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Of course the pic is rotated 90°... I suppose the two that expanded in the left row aren't really valid as they are so destroyed but even those won't push back over that last step.

    You can see that the rest all have a gap, the smallest being on the lower right which is pretty small.

    The top slug on the right is a factory Gualandi slug I loaded. I was given a few to try and honestly wasn't impressed with accuracy.

    Yeah, what Randy said above... Not sure if some of the slugs have deeper cavities that the wad pushes all the way in or not but for these Paradox slugs the Russian wads did not seat all the way in. Accuracy was pretty decent though not outstanding and no better than good Foster loads out to 50 yards anyway. A bit of a qualifier though is that the slugs are undersize in my fat bored test gun there is so a bit of slop. I'm sure a tighter fit would give better accuracy.

    So there it is. Recovered slugs and wads always have a story to tell! I spend a lot of time digging through backstops to get slugs to see how things look and have often been surprised. Almost always when accuracy is poor I find failed wads and/or distorted slugs... usually collapsed skirts or wads have blown into or damaged skirts. That's why I fill HB slugs.

    I have recovered lots of my own slugs and slugs others have shot from home cast to factory and it is surprising how much unfilled soft lead slugs collapse and distort... including Lyman "pellet" slugs. I have lots of examples.

    Longbow

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check