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Thread: The garand ammo arguement rolls on!

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    The garand ammo arguement rolls on!

    Just received from CMP, this subject turned into quite the brouhaha in the GCA community last year.

    Dear CMP Family,

    The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP and has a bullet weight more than 172-174gr. These rifles are at least 70 years old and were not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets. Always wear hearing and eye protection when firing an M1 Garand, 1903 and/or 1903A3 rifle.

    This warning is an update/addition to the Ammunition section in the Read This First manual enclosed with each rifle shipment (M1 Garand manual-page 6 and M1903 manual-page 10).

    Civilian Marksmanship Program

    Somebody make parts at the range we have not heard about?

  2. #2
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    There must be an echo in here.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master

    FLINTNFIRE's Avatar
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    Yeah so if in 70 years there really is not a issue why would I worry about the age of the rifle ? I figure if it stood the test of world war 2 korea and wherever else it is good to go .

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy namsag's Avatar
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    Well I am no authority but it makes sense to me. I don't see the need to push it. In my Garands I only shoot M2 ball or something very close to it, as designed for the rifle. If I wanted to hot rod a .30-'06 I certainly wouldn't do it with an M1 Garand, for several reasons.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gtek View Post
    Just received from CMP, this subject turned into quite the brouhaha in the GCA community last year.

    Dear CMP Family,

    The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s 174gr. ... not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets.

    Civilian Marksmanship Program

    Somebody make parts at the range we have not heard about?
    Most people, you only have to warn them once. The rest insist on learning the hard way.
    Warning: I know Judo. If you force me to prove it I'll shoot you.

  6. #6
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    If you’ve not read Hatcher’s book of the Garand, I’d highly recommend it. The testing the M1 was subjected to is absolute torture. At the end of testing, the ordnance department concluded that the Garand receiver was the most durable firearm ever created and demonstrated extreme durability. The Achilles of the rifle is the op rod. Just remove the gas cylinder cap screw and you can fire anything your heart desires. It will effectively turn the rifle into a straight pull bolt action with spring assist.
    Last edited by zarrinvz24; 04-21-2021 at 08:25 AM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master



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    I was caught up in the "magnumize it" crowd in the early days of my youth. I finally come around to the point that what is accurate is what counts. If shooting a 30-06 and 150 grain bullets, I would start with a starting load around 2600 FPS with the appropriate powders and work my way up until I had found the most accurate load or accuracy was beginning to fall off. Then I would back up to the most accurate load and that was my hunting load. Deer haven't discovered Kevlar as yet. AS I said before, I only shoot 4895 powder in my Garands and I have found accuracy to be at its best around 2700+ FPS in most of them.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarrinvz24 View Post
    If you’ve not read Hatcher’s book of the Garand, I’d highly recommend it. The testing the M1 was subjected to is absolute torture. At the end of testing, the ordnance department concluded that the Garand receiver was the most durable firearm ever created and demonstrated extreme durability. The Achilles of the rifle is the op rod. Just remove the gas cylinder cap screw and you can fire anything your heart desires. It will effectively turn the rifle into a straight pull bolt action with spring assist.
    Just use an adjustable gas plug and you can shoot whatever fits in the magazine.

  9. #9
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    Certainly an important subject, as so many of us own M1 Garands. I knew I had to own one after using them extensively in the Army, but they were in short supply for civilians. For a couple of years the only ones I saw on the surplus market were returns from Britain, and ran well over $80. Since I was making $1.50 hr. at the time they remained beyond my reach, until the Govt. eventually released some for sale and I got my first one from DCM (later rebranded to CMP). But, in anticipation of the day when I would own one I started saving loading information. The recommendations were almost always for IMR 4895, but what varied surprisingly was the amount. I still have articles in my reloading binder that recommend 50 - 52 gr., with one writer claiming that 50 gr. duplicated the Govt. loading. I never loaded them that hot, but settled on 48 gr. After reading through this Forum's back pages, and some not so long ago, I'm thinking that 46 gr. might be a better everyday choice. Also, a slight adjustment in load might be advisable if one is using H-4895 instead of IMR 4895.

    As stated by zarrinvz24 above, the weakest part of the system is the operating rod. It has a double bend, and has to be within specs to operate properly. Shooting lots of ammo, high pressure ammo, is what deforms the rod. I read a short reference to this problem written by Col. Charles Askins who said that he and his Camp Perry cabin mate used to "straighten out" their rods after the day's completion by bending them over the bunk frames in the cabin. I found that pretty confusing as the rods are obviously bent to start with, but it was later explained to me by one of his contemporaries that by straightening he meant bending back to original configuration. I've never had to do this, but apparently if one has a "trained eye" it can be done. One thing is for certain, the op rod is one of the most expensive parts to replace, so if you're not adept at bending/straightening them it's a good idea to have a spare or two, as the supply of unissued originals has dried up, and most of those now available have been rebuilt one way or another, like receiving a new tip on the rod. I used to have a couple of spare rods and gas cylinders in anticipation of needing to replace those parts someday, but used them up building a couple of rifles from parts, so will have to get around to buying some more for insurance. Usually SARCO is a good source.

    DG

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Digger's Avatar
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    Thank you for the info ...
    With that said , I feel a bit better about my situation as I stated in another garand thread ..
    "Bent" my op rod very carefully by using a section of pipe with internal padding , braced to my bench and incrementally putting pressure at certain points in reverse of the bend angles for my Tanker in 308 .
    Restoring the original angles worked very nicely as it had been just a little out of spec looking at the action/function.
    With my hand loads being a bit lighter , it is a very pleasing shooter.
    Probably in the past , the op rod came from another rifle in that state of condition.
    It is much easier to fool people ,
    than to convince them they have been fooled !

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    If you can read this in English , .. thank a Vet !

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    The Garand was designed to fire the USGI M1 load and later the National Guard M2 load. Wisdom dictates folks will do well to stick to clones of those two loads.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub
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    This is new news? I guess some newbie shooter done blowed up their new Garand. It's amazing how much we have forgotten considered we now have more access to information than ever before in the history of mankind.

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy HumptyDumpty's Avatar
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    I received the same email as well. I thought this was well proliferated knowledge, but apparently not.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumptyDumpty View Post
    I received the same email as well. I thought this was well proliferated knowledge, but apparently not.
    Same. I shoot only 4895 in mine as well. I have shot match/heavier bullets before with reduced charges, but usually I shoot only 150 grain FMJs with the military loading.

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    The main thing you have to worry about is port pressure. Slower powders mean higher port pressure. Stay away from any ammo that advertises higher velocities at lower pressures, such as hornady superformance. The Schuester (think I spelled that right) gas plug works well if you have any other concerns.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    i think that the message was sent to make sure that those with lower IQs don't try to hotrod these guns.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Few years ago, I saw a Garand in a gunshop that had a crack across the heel and had been welded to repair. There was no an explanation available on how it occurred. I tried to buy it for parts since the weld went across the serial number and I wanted no part of a cracked action anyway. Owner thought I was crazy to think it was not ok.

    I think, early in WWII, there was a problem with heel cracking while shooting rifle grenades. The solution was to anneal the receiver heel. The heel was dipped in molten lead. At least that is what I think I remember reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by zarrinvz24 View Post
    If you’ve not read Hatcher’s book of the Garand, I’d highly recommend it. The testing the M1 was subjected to is absolute torture. At the end of testing, the ordnance department concluded that the Garand receiver was the most durable firearm ever created and demonstrated extreme durability. The Achilles of the rifle is the op rod. Just remove the gas cylinder cap screw and you can fire anything your heart desires. It will effectively turn the rifle into a straight pull bolt action with spring assist.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Just thought it was interesting the CMP released now. Being a 61' model and having seen a few things, the seemingly never ending quest of individuals to try and make things do what they were not designed to do will continue to entertain me.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gtek View Post
    Just received from CMP, this subject turned into quite the brouhaha in the GCA community last year.

    Dear CMP Family,

    The CMP advises to not use .30/06 ammunition in M1 Garands, 1903s, and 1903A3s that is loaded beyond 50,000 CUP and has a bullet weight more than 172-174gr. These rifles are at least 70 years old and were not designed for max loads and super heavy bullets. Always wear hearing and eye protection when firing an M1 Garand, 1903 and/or 1903A3 rifle.

    This warning is an update/addition to the Ammunition section in the Read This First manual enclosed with each rifle shipment (M1 Garand manual-page 6 and M1903 manual-page 10).

    Civilian Marksmanship Program

    Somebody make parts at the range we have not heard about?
    That's what has been recommend for the past 85 years. What's changed? Nothing that I can see.

    50,000 CUP is the SAAMI standard for the 30-06 in CUP. 60,000 PSI is the SAAMI standard in the 30-06 in PSI. https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

    I have personally seen Garand's converted to 35 Whelen, 300 Win Mag and 458 Win Mag. The only ones I have done have been to 308 Win.

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...in-mag-garand/

    I do heed the advice about port pressure. That being said in 30 plus years of working on the for Service rifles for competition I have never seen a bent OP rod. I made the mistake of agreeing to built two tankers for a buddy. I will never do that again. Saying bending the OP without heat was a challenge is an understatement.

    https://www.handloadermagazine.com/m1-garand-handloads

    Various sources claim the M1 bullet weighed 172, 173 and 174 grains, a mystery explained by a list of .30-06 service loads in Hatcher’s Notebook, the reference work by General Julian Hatcher. The maximum bullet weight of M1 ammunition was a maximum of 174.5 grains but could be as much as 3 grains lighter. Similarly, the maximum weight of the “150-grain” bullet was 152 grains but could be as light as 149 grains.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-22-2021 at 02:26 AM.
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  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    A year or so ago a member posted some articles with reference to what ammo the Garand was actually developed with and the opinions of the writers that improper lubing was the main issue with operating rods , I can not remember posters name , he sent me the articles as he posted that any who wanted he would email to .

    I try to stay in the so called sweet spot of powders and have got accuracy with out hot rodding or modding , but each person can believe what they want or shoot what they want , as to buying parts sarco did not have any last time I looked and I am careful what I buy there as the so called 1911 mags there are a travesty to be called original .

    These were rifles meant for hard use in hard conditions , my father talks about people who did not keep their rifles lubed correctly or used to much and how his kept on doing what it was made for in 1950-1951 .

    Glad I bought en blocs and cardboards when they were available , as there may be a time they need pressed back into use .

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check