Lee PrecisionTitan ReloadingWidenersInline Fabrication
Reloading EverythingMidSouth Shooters SupplyRepackboxRotoMetals2
Load Data
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 43

Thread: Bullet lube gluing bullets in case necks

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    214

    Bullet lube gluing bullets in case necks

    I have recently been reminded of the occurrence of lubricated cast bullets setting up some sort of bond with the case neck after loaded cartridges have been standing for a time. The relevance of this is that it can affect velocity and POI, and probably group as well.

    The outcome can be a very different POI when you come to use the ammo versus what was obtained when testing immediately following loading. I have an instance to relate.

    With cast bullets, this adhesion may occur in as little as a week.

    I have found extensive discussion of such “welding” as it relates to jacketed bullets, but nothing at all on cast bullets. Welding/gluing, whether of jacketed or cast, can be discovered when attempting to pull bullets that don’t want to be pulled, or by attempting a small increase in seating depth. I occasionally pull cast bullets soon after loading them, for all the usual reasons, and do not recall any difficulty pulling newly loaded ammo. Seemingly it happens only with “aged” ammo.

    My reminder came from loading some .30-30s with 175 gn hard cast GC HP bullets and BAC lube.

    Powder was BM2 ("Benchmark" in U.S.). Rifle is a 1949 Marlin 336A. Bullets are seated out to engage the rifling, and not crimped. My Remington cases have a light outside neck turn – removing high spots and leaving neck thickness of .010” max to accommodate .3125” bullets with neck clearance. Case necks are expanded with Lyman M Die 31.

    With 24 gns of BM2, loaded the day before, I got 1830 fps for the clean barrel fouler, and 1782 average of 5 for the group, with SD 54. Next load was 26 gns, again loaded the day before - missed the velocity on the fouler, 1898 and 26 for the group. So far so good, about 50 fps per extra grain of powder, but still too much SD and vertical stringing (2” at 50 meters).

    I then loaded 27 gns, expecting 1950 fps, and hoping for the velocities to tighten up. Shooting was delayed by a spell of windy weather, so ammo aged about 10 days.

    When calmer conditions returned, the clean barrel fouler gave 2105 fps - up 200 fps for one grain, but extraction was fine. After some thought I then ran the group - average 2036 fps (138 fps extra for one grain, much too much), and SD 38.

    Groups were all about 1" lateral at 50 m, but 4", 2" and 4" vertically for the three loads when shot fresh, in line with SD. Updated plot of individual shot POIs against velocities (now 23 non-fouler shots) indicates 2.2" displacement per 100 fps velocity, emphasising the need to reduce velocity spread. Good loads in this rifle group about 1” at 50 m for 5 shots.

    I took the unfired 27 gn cartridges home and pulled them (collet). The first one tried WOULD NOT BUDGE. Then I bumped them in a few thou with the bullet seater. Each gave a distinct pop as the seal broke. After that they pulled normally. This looked like a message.

    Next, I shot some 26 gn BM2 loads that had been “aged” five days. This load previously, when shot fresh, averaged 1898 fps and gave a 2” five shot group at 50 meters. The same load now “aged”, and refusing to pull, gave 1993 fps (clean barrel fouler) and 1939 (average of the three following – I wasted two of the intended five).

    I repeated this part of the test later with 10 day old ammo with very similar results - clean barrel fouler 2035 fps, group 1943 fps. Combining the 8 non-fouler shots from the two tests gave 1942 fps and SD 18. POI comparing the eight aged rounds with the five fresh gave 4 minutes higher POI at 50 m, which would translate into about 5 minutes on the 200 m LAS rams. Groups at 50 meters for the two "aged" 26 gn tests were .59" (4) and 1.71" (5).

    Incidentally, for the four groups for which I had clean barrel fouler velocities, the average increase over the "group" velocity was 66 fps.

    I reread Larry Gibson’s report on his excellent lube test from 2014 (NOE site), but found no mention of when the shooting took place relative to when the cartridges were loaded.

    I have answered some of my own previous question (which lubes do it and what to do about it) - I have demonstrated adhesion for five different lubes, and resolved that henceforth I shall do both my testing and my serious shooting with ammo that is at least a week old.

    Edit April 29 and May 1 re testing:

    Testing for adhesion by pulling bullets is complicated by collet slipping on cast bullets. A surer method seems to be applying pressure with seating die to test for "click" when the bullet moves. By this test, BAC (Beeswax, Alox, Carnauba) remains a front runner loud and clear, and ammo loaded a few months ago with LBT is "clicking". Another aged lot with 3:1 beeswax and synthetic two-stroke oil seems to be OK.

    Dummies loaded by me and tested 8 days later clicked for BAC and LBT lubes, but not for Orange Magic. A different set of three dummies tested at 12 days gave definitive clicks for BAC and LBT, and a lesser sound for OM.

    Alternative for home testing of a loading batch is to seat all bullets out a bit, then seat to full depth immediately before use to check for adhesion. A click will indicate adhesion at some level. I have no idea yet whether adhesion will set up again after once being broken - that is for the future.

    If someone actually tests their ammo I would be REALLY interested to hear how different lubes respond.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 05-01-2021 at 01:34 AM. Reason: Update - new information

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master



    M-Tecs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    9,452
    Never heard of it for cast bullets. Through the years I have been given many unknown loaded cartridges with cast that I have pulled with nothing unusual. I have no idea how long some of them had been loaded but in one case the person that loaded them had been dead for 20 plus years before I was given them. Only thing I have seen is the lube dried out.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-29-2021 at 01:55 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

    gwpercle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    9,251
    My usual lube is Beeswax and Lithium grease or Beeswax and Alox , they are soft lubes , don't dry out and don't make for a very good adhesive . Never had any problems pulling them .
    Military WWII 30-06 did have black asphalt bullet sealant , it did offer a little resistance but once the sealant / crimp was broken they pulled out easily ... but that sealant was put there for a reason and was sorta expected to be a "cement"
    Generally speaking most bullet lubes , especially the soft lubes just don't have the strength (physical properties) to "glue" or "cement" things together .

    JB Weld or Gorilla Glue would be a different story ... poor boolit lubes to boot .
    Gary
    Like to add : I lube with a Lyman 450 lube sizer , lube is only in the lube grooves not tumble lube or coating the complete boolit .
    Last edited by gwpercle; 04-21-2021 at 11:23 AM. Reason: added info .
    Certified Cajun
    Proud Member of The Basket of Deplorables
    " Let's Go Brandon !"

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


    Walks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    3,028
    Never heard of it happening at all with cast until recently.
    Had some Powder Coated .44Mags stick. They didn't want to come out with an impact hammer at all. Until I seated them .001 deeper.
    That broke the "seal".
    Never had it happen with 50/50.
    I HATE auto-correct

    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

    My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.

    SASS #375 Life

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    6,314
    I’d sure like to see the source for this “welding” bullets in the case.
    Further, with 0.001 to 0.002 tension on the seated lead or jacket bullet in the case, their is absolutely no need to perform this mystery reloading step
    Regards
    John

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    214
    Thanks everyone for responses so far.

    I am beginning to wonder if the culprit is the unlubricated part of the bullet between the grooves. All my bullets are sized and lubricated in the lube sizer, then some get some extra sizing in the Lee dies afterwards. In due course I will test this idea by lightly lubing them after all this with anhydrous lanolin, as if I were lubing cases for sizing, i.e. a very small amount on the hands, rubbed together, then roll cases/bullets between hands.

    Edit: No joy from the lanolin.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 05-01-2021 at 01:37 AM.

  7. #7
    Moderator


    Winger Ed.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Just outside Gun Barrel City, Texas
    Posts
    9,480
    During one of my rare 'clean the shop' adventures, I found a few loaded ahhhh,,,,,
    .45 & .38 mistakes where primers had gotten seated upside down somehow.

    These had accumulated from the 80s & 90s and had my garbage lube for slow/low speed stuff
    I made from melting down all the kid's broken crayons and a can of grease that had gotten dirt in it.
    I rounded 'em up, and ran them through my hammer looking kinetic puller.

    If the boolits were any harder than 'normal' to knock out, I wasn't smart enough to notice.
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


    OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
    This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
    EVERYONE!
    Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

    Land Owner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mims, FL
    Posts
    1,864
    Age hardening and an associated increase in lead-alloy boolit diameter is a known phenomena. Perhaps it is not the lube at all. You did not mention alloy or age of the cast boolits.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    214
    Land Owner

    Thanks for the interest.

    All bullets were of a hard alloy, about 3 parts of "hardball" range pickups to one of linotype, estimate 10% non-lead. Precise mix is adjusted to achieve the required bullet weight. Intended weight for this bullet is 170.0 gns. Linotype is 164.5 gns.

    The bullets for the BM2 powder x BAC lube shooting were cast a month or two ago, but freshly sized and lubed immediately before loading.

    Unless I had done things like pulling bullets and changing seating depth I too would be saying "I have never seen it".

    Unfortunately I have another example where something similar may have contributed to the destruction of a very nice 1927 Colt Official Police .38 Special revolver. The user had devised a load with hi-tech coated 150 gn bullets and a local powder. Unfortunately he also "used up" some 148 gn wadcutters for the bulk reloading job. Lube on the wadcutters is unknown, but 50:50 Alox is a likely bet. Seating depth and powder space were reportedly the same. The coated bullets evidently gave no trouble but the third wadcutter fired took out the side of the chamber and the top strap. Apart from the cardinal sin of component substitution, there was also the observation, when the ammunition was disassembled, that the coated bullets pulled easily (inertia puller), but the lubricated wadcutters put up a real fight.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 05-01-2021 at 01:39 AM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    13,617
    I don't think I've ever had the opportunity to shoot a reload, of any kind, the same day or the next day after loading! All of mine are aged. Just a thought.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    214
    The trap, if there is one, will be in doing our testing and maybe zeroing with freshly loaded ammo, and then using "aged" stuff for the real shooting.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    Land Owner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Mims, FL
    Posts
    1,864
    Wayne Smith - those of us with an adjacent range, or "close enough" thereto, frequently cast, load, AND shoot in the same 24 hr. day. A month ago my spouse expressed a desire to "exercise" her Charter Arms 38 Special and I was all too happy to fire up the Mihec 360-156 brass mold and make 38 Spc and 357 Mag SWC's and HP's for her (and me) to shoot the next day.

    I too have boolits cast, lubed & sized, and loaded rounds from years ago, some months ago, and some that I cast Tuesday, 4/13/21, PC'd yesterday, sized some, lubed some , most not sized, most not lubed, gas checked some, most not gas checked, loaded a few ladder test rounds last night, and expected to shoot those today! An out-of-town "shopping trip" (that keeps her happy) came between me and the range today. Tomorrow though...there is always tomorrow.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master

    gwpercle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Baton Rouge, Louisiana
    Posts
    9,251
    The little "pop" you hear when pulling a boolit could be from breaking a tiny vacuum in a tight fitting case ... if the boolit is a snug fit and if the primer is tightly in the pocket ... when the boolit moves forward it will create a small vacuum and when the boolit comes out it might go ...pop ... just like breaking the seal on a canning jar lid .
    And now that I think about it ...when pulling WWII 30-06 ammo , after seating the AP bullet deeper to break the seal and crimp ... I think a remember hearing that sound ... the primers were sealed too!
    I bet it was pulling a vacuum ...what cha think ?
    Gary
    Certified Cajun
    Proud Member of The Basket of Deplorables
    " Let's Go Brandon !"

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    6,314
    Wilderness ... Still waiting your post with the SOURCE for this welding process
    Regards
    John

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    214
    John

    Yes I'd like to know too. "Welding" is no doubt the wrong term for lead and brass, but some form of adhesion or binding is occurring, and I'd like either to eliminate it or to ensure that it is consistent. Understanding it would be even better.

    Or did you mean the jacketed bullet story? Example:

    https://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...necks.3785592/

    Your comments on neck tension prompted me to measure some cases (6) after preparation (Lyman 31 M die) and after loading as dummies. The change in neck OD was .0035" - .004". This is for a .3125" bullet and case necks partially turned (i.e. high spots only) to .010" max thickness.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    214
    GWPERCLE - Re: "pop" this occurs well before the bullet is clear of the case. If a bullet is seated in another .005" or so to break the seal preparatory to pulling, it also may pop with this small movement. I'm ready to say that it's just the sound of some sort of seal being broken, and that it may be an easy test for adhesion.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Canada, Ontario, Durham region
    Posts
    549
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    The change in neck OD was .0035" - .004". This is for a .3125" bullet and case necks partially turned (i.e. high spots only) to .010" max thickness.
    My interpretation of the above numbers is you have 3.5 thou to 4 thou of neck tension.
    If that is the amount of neck tension squeeze being applied, then I believe you have too much neck tension. 1 to 2 thou of neck tension is what my load manuals recommend.

    Cartridge cases that have been resized several times will develop a thick ring of brass at the bottom of the case neck. This ring of thickened brass must be reamed out occasionally.
    Your brass may have developed this donut ring of brass. This ring could be locking into a lube groove or your high neck tension could be pressing the ring onto a solid area on the bullet, locking the ring into the bullet.
    If this is occurring in your handloads I could see that it could cause difficulties pulling bullets.
    Last edited by greenjoytj; 04-25-2021 at 08:18 AM. Reason: Spelling & grammar

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Posts
    214
    Greenjoytj - thanks. I have Forster inside neck reamers for .30 and .31, so will check. Note however that bullets that do not reach the bottom of the neck are also "sticking", and in any case I would have thought the Lyman M die should iron out any tight spots. I'll look into the neck tension aspect as well, bearing in mind that these have to survive in a tube magazine.

    I have run a test, loading sized and lubed bullets, ageing for a week then trying both deeper seating and pulling. All five lubes tried have demonstrated set up with time. Initial test was a week of ageing.

    I shot some more tests this morning and will in due course update the original post. Suffice to say that the 26 gn BM2 load when aged, compared with the same load shot the day after loading, delivered approx 50 fps more velocity and a POI lift of 4 minutes at 50 m, which will be about 5 minutes on the rams at 200. SD and group were also better with age.

    In future I will prepare both my competition and test ammunition at least a week in advance.

    Is your 1 to 2 thou each side or total? My measurement is total, i.e. 2 thou or less on one edge.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 04-25-2021 at 11:46 PM.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Canada, Ontario, Durham region
    Posts
    549
    Maximum neck tension should be 2 thou total.
    Otherwise the bullet will act as a neck sizer stretching the brass out so much that you could end up with less neck tension than if tension was set to be just 2 thou total.
    Also high neck tension can swagge a soft bullet smaller over time but I don’t think that is happening to your hard alloy bullets.
    Measuring the bullets shank of an aged bullet at the area where the case neck gripped the bullet would tell you if high neck tension was swagging down the bullet.

    Case mouths crimped into a crimp groove or cannelure prevents bullets from being push deeper into the case by spring pressure in a tube magazine.
    Last edited by greenjoytj; 04-26-2021 at 05:25 AM.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    6,314
    Buy a Lyman 30 LONG neck expander die ....
    https://budgetshootersupply.ca/produ...xpander-m-die/

    First step expands the inside of the case neck to just under bullet diameter.
    Regards
    John

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check