Lee 7/8 slug loads

[castinboolits]

Hey folks,

I'm new to the forum. I've been lurking in the shadows and absorbing your knowledge for years, but this is my first post.

I've wanted to reload shotshell for a long time. I have 4lb jugs of Universal and Titegroup, and seeing a Lee Load All was only $100, I figured I could get set up with a Lee slug mould, hulls, primers and wads for a couple hundred bucks all in and broaden my reloading capabilities. I got excited and jumped in.

Well, turns out it's not so simple. I bought the press, but hulls are hard to find and load data is way more rigid than I expected. I bought a local shop out of primers, turns out even those are not interchangeable, as you know, but I expected they would be only being familiar with pistol and rifle primers.

I have target and bird rounds. I'm mainly interested in slugs and buck shot for starting reloads. So, my question is this. Do I have to load Universal powder with Lee 7/8 Slugs ONLY in Federal Gold Medal hulls as Hodgon states as my only option?

First off, I respect load data. I walk the line, I load with care. I don't want to damage a firearm or myself anymore than you want to hear about it. I would stick hard to the data IF I could find Gold Medal hulls anywhere. However, I can't. Not a one. AND... I am finding posts where guys are buying cheap 1 oz bird shot loads, dumping out the shot to cast into slugs later, and recrimping those same cheap rounds with a 7/8 Lee slug to replace the shot.

This implies that any load with the correct hull, primer, powder, charge, and wad combination can safely be loaded with a slug over shot data as long as the slug weight is equal to or less than the shot load. I am assuming the lighter slug allows for possible pressure inceases making the 7/8 slug a safer choice. Also in a full reload a guy could reduce a grain or two to compensate.

I am interpreting this right?

Other posts are manipulating the data the same way. In addition, guys are using shot under slugs to fill out the hull space instead of cards. This gives me WAY more options. 9 more hulls with universal alone, and 3 are the same hulls required for titegroup (Gun Club is the only one locally available on a quick search, but it gives me a solid AVAILABLE option). AND, damned if that isn't an amazing multipurpose load. No need to alternate shot and slug loading if you can have both in one.

Of course, I could find a hull and base my loads around what is available. Add another powder to the list, but in our current state I was looking to broaden my options with what I already have on hand instead of buying additional single purpose components. Not to mention the bulk of hulls and wads for storing, I don't want extras around if I don't need them.

Can anyone clarify things for me? Am I letting the reckless lead me astray? This will require further study to ensure I understand what I am getting into, but am I making sense?

[Hogtamer]

You can sub shot weight for slug weight with no problem. The gun club hulls are fine, so find a 7/8 load using your components.

[longbow]

You will likely find that slug specific load data is quite limited though there's more out there I see now than when I started many years ago.

Slug specific recipes tend to lean towards highest velocity attainable at acceptable pressures where birdshot data is loaded to achieve a specific velocity for consistent wing shooting... and pressures tend to be all over the place but within safe limits.

Also, the general consensus, for typical Foster style slugs anyway, is that slugs generate less pressure than birdshot loads due to lower bore friction. Once the slug has swaged down to bore diameter the sidewall/bore friction is relatively small whereas shot acts like a fluid and presses out against the bore all the way out to the muzzle.

So, the short answer as Hal says above is yes, you can sub a slug for equal weight shot payload safely. You may have to use a different wad or use card, cork, felt or whatever as spacers to put the slug at correct crimp height.

Making substitutions to shotshell recipes can be a bit risky if you aren't familiar... and even if you are! However, using birdshot data and subbing an equal weight slug with no other changes except wad column is safe and commonly done.

The tricky areas are hulls, primers and crimps.

There are two main styles of hulls: tapered/compression formed and straight walled. Generally you cannot used straight walled hull data for a tapered hulk due to less volume in the tapered hull and different "combustion chamber" shape. Straight walled hulls can be interchanged based on volume and with wad column changes to suit crimp height.

Primers... 209 primers are not created equal! There are "hot" 209's and "cool" 209's. There are also magnum 209's. Tom Armbrust published a primer comparison here:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

A simple primer change can affect pressure up to 3000 PSI! When using max. pressure loads a change of 3000 PSI upwards would be undesirable! Conversely if using a minimum load or slow powder a change to a cooler primer could result in a squib load with the payload not leaving the barrel.

Crimp style and depth can also have a large effect on pressure.

Again, it you are using birdshot recipes and substituting an equal weight slug the pressure should run lower than stated for birdshot so that gives a bit of leeway.

A reloading manual I like is Reloading for Shotgunners because unlike many manuals, this one gives a range of powder charges and pressures for a given hull/primer/payload combination. If in doubt choose the lower pressure load.

Low pressure can also lead to trouble. If there isn't enough pressure for the powder to burn completely you will get inconsistent velocities and possibly a squib load. Using too light a payload can result in not enough pressure for complete powder burn. Subbing a 7/8 oz. slug for 1 1/8 oz. birdshot load may not work well depending on the powder used.

Having said all that, I just went to the Hodgdon site and find a recipe for 7/8 oz. slug in Remington Gun Club hulls over Universal powder:

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/rel...c=true&type=55

There are also birdshot recipes for 1 oz. using Titegroup. Not sure of Titegroup's characteristics but it would be worth loading up a couple of test rounds using your 7/8 oz. slugs. Worst that will happen is poor burn. If so check the bore to make sure the slug made it out of the barrel!

Nothing wrong with sticking to birdshot recipes, they will just be lower performance than slug specific recipes but will work fine.

Longbow

[castinboolits]

Gentlemen, thank you for the responses.

Suddenly, this isn't looking like such a big plunge. I was having such a *** moment.

Longbow, I appreciate all the info you included.

This really added to my confusion. I went to universal here and only got one load option, which I was quoting. https://hodgdon.com/universal/

Here, where you searched, my options are totally different. About a dozen hulls as I was originally expecting. Same site, same product, not the same data, at all. https://shop.hodgdon.com/hodgdon/hodgdon-universal

That alone clears up a ton.

Now for wads, I typed in a 7/8 slug load and get WAA12. I type that in at my suppliers site and I get multiple choices 7/8, 1 1/8oz, so thinking I see a pattern, I change the load to 1 1/8 slug and I get only 1 load requiring a fed12S4. THEN... I change the slug to shot and I get 15 loads and WAA12 is back on the table, but fed12S4's are not. Fun!

SOOO. I can gather that the WAA12 is going to be a pretty versatile wad for my current interests with a Gun Club hull. Are wads covered pretty well in the reloading manuals, or is it also simpler than it seems off the hop? literally just a cup to hold the load and spacing to fill out the hull?

And noting crimps in the tricky section, is this more of a concern with new hulls as a reload would have a crimp point for reference, or more the pressure you are adding to the load with the amount of pressure the crimp is adding? More resistence, or static pressure, more pressure down the barrel?

Anything to note on hulls now that I have at least a few choices. Lots of Cheddite to choose from. I like that gun club, STS, and nitro are all the same, giving me more options to collect with the same data. Any offering more reloads or anything else to consider?

Thanks again fellas. Cleared up a lot already!

[Hogtamer]

A solid card wad in the bottom of the shotcup keeps the soft wad from driving into the base of the slug. A 20 card generally works well. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/12...roductinfo/NC/

[longbow]

Yes, what Hogtamer said! I forgot to mention that.

The drive key is supposed to bite into the base of the shotcup to ensure that rotation from a rifled barrel is transferred to the slug (no skidding) and while it may do that and does help keep wads from blowing blown into the hollow cavity, it is not totally effective. Best to use a 1/8" nitro card wad in the bottom of the shotcup.

I prefer 16 ga. But 20 ga. Is good too.

If nitro card wads are not available you can punch out dense cardboard disks from backs of note pads, cereal boxes, or whatever. You'll likely need at least two and probably more and they aren't as good as nitro card wads but they'll work.

Polyethylene snow sliders for kids (Magic Carpets) make a good filler disk.

A 5/8" gasket punch should do it. That's between 16 and 20 gauge.

You should also check slug in wad to bore fit as well. A slug in wad should be a snug fit in the bore when pushed through with a metal rod or large dowel. If the fit is loose accuracy will not likely be good. Conversely if fit is too tight wad petals will likely shear or extrude and accuracy will again likely be poor.

We used to have a thread by SuperBlazingSabots with lots of good slug/wad combinations for fit. Unfortunately that info is all gone now. Long story!

Longbow

[castinboolits]

Thanks, I am big on the diy side of things so a gasket punch is an interesting prospect.

I contacted the local dealer that had Gun Club listed. He has sold out. He pushed me away form going that way, and no offense to preference, it's not a quality issue, just supply. He made a good point. No reason to start with a load for supplies that will be harder to come by when I am starting from scratch. Remington is bankrupt. Might as well go with something that is in high supply. In his case it is Fiocchi and Cheddite.

Any thoughts/preferences here?

[longbow]

Weeeellll... when I got back into slug loading many years ago I was having trouble finding hulls I wanted in Canada so got hold of Bilozir Fine Guns who is the Canadian BPI distributor and he convinced me to buy Fiocchi hulls. Once I got them I found out that load data was pretty scarce... especially slug load data. Initially I stuck to published load data but soon realized they are a straight walled hull and that I could use similar volume straight walled hull data so did that. No issues and they seemed to be good hulls.

I have not used Cheddite but as far as I know they are also straight walled hulls. Not sure about basewad height.

Something you might find useful:

https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/12-ga-2-75-hull-volumes/
https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/makin...vershot-discs/

When hulls are scarce you use what you can get.

Longbow

[castinboolits]

Sorry, I never added a location. I'm in AB. It was Will at Bilozir I was speaking with. I usually order from Henry at Budget Shooter Supply, but he's got so many loyal customers he's getting bought out fast. I am going to get a #4 shot mould, the 7/8 slug, and roll crimp from him. I'll continue talks with Will and see where that goes.

Oohhh, and thanks for the links.