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Thread: Can you just PC and (almost) forget about BHN?

  1. #41
    Boolit Bub
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    citric acid is what i found to be the best but you need read my post in this link
    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...d-and-Antimony


    Quote Originally Posted by marky123 View Post
    What's the proper flux for antimony/lead?

  2. #42
    Boolit Master
    a.squibload's Avatar
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    I forgot to say: the metal scrapyard here usually has bags of shot, had a dozen or more
    last time I was there. Usually small shot and bags with holes in 'em but an easy source
    of antimony I guess.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master murf205's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daekar View Post
    I push COWW+2% tin to almost 2000fps after PC with fine accuracy and no leading. I think PC really is a game changer in some ways.
    It is a game changer for sure. I use range lead and 2% tin to push a PC'd boolit 2100 fps in a 15" barrel Encore with good accuracy and not a trace of leading. No water quenching with casting or Pc'ing Since I started pc'ing I have not had any leading problems, period. BUT...never forget that "fit is king"
    IT AINT what ya shoot--its how ya shoot it. NONE of us are as smart as ALL of us!

  4. #44
    Boolit Buddy
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    I use wheel weight or harder for rifle rounds, though I don't really know the BHN. I did find that soft PC'd lead didn't work well in a 25-06. One shot and there was a cloud of lead and I spent quite a bit of time cleaning that bore. On the other hand, wheel weights with 4 or 5 nuggets of super hard per 10 lbs, along with PC, gas checks and quenching lets me shoot 223 at sufficient pressure to work in an AR and poses no leading problem in a 1/9 twist with Winchester 748 powder. Also no problem in a 308 with IMR 3031 but I keep those down to 2200 fps or less because they've proven to be more accurate at lower speeds. Good plinkers and usually 1 1/2 inch or less groups at 100 yds.

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master fredj338's Avatar
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    In a handgun, probably not as much. The softest I run in service calibers is ranges scrap. I water drop out of the PC oven & they come in about 11-12bhn. Plenty hard for 9mm & 40 pressures. I would also shoot those in midrange magnums. For max loads in magnums, I might want them a bit harder, but the PC does a good job with leading/accuracy if the bullet fit is correct.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
    NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol

  6. #46
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Multra View Post
    Isn't there a thread of someone PCing pure lead .45 acp?
    Got a link? I was thinking of casting some pure lead (roof sheathing) then powder coating them for deer hunting. Hoping to get some expansion.

  7. #47
    Boolit Mold
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    My bullets that I PC are .45rn and .44swc both out of lee molds running range scrap. I cast, then PC, then size. I seems the harder I push them the better they do. I generally just load max loads out of the book and they seem to do fine. The .45acp is one of my most accurate handguns.

  8. #48
    Boolit Buddy gnappi's Avatar
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    Nowadays, I only cast pistol bullets and if I can't scratch my cast bullets with my thumbnail, I quench the PC'd bullets out of the oven and be done with it.
    Regards,

    Gary

  9. #49
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Isn't there a thread of someone PCing pure lead .45 acp?
    See
    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...=1#post5099015
    Run just fine....

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    I much prefer soft bullets these days. I've been casting all my self-defense and hunting boolits. 100% pure lead in my revolver rounds with a powder coat. No leading. For 9mm and 45auto I add a little range scrap but still around BHN4, reason being I don't want to deform on the ramp going in the tube.

    762x39 and 308win are cast soft enough to deform on the seater die. I PC for the AK the 308 boolits are gas checked and not powder coated. They go up to 1800fps without leading.

    My fix for some soft 9mm lubed boolits that were leading was to stick them in a pot with boiling water to remove the lube then gave them some PC. Fixed the problem.

  11. #51
    Boolit Master

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    I use 50/50 + some tin (COWW/pure lead) and powder coat (Smoke's pc) all my boolits nowadays, handguns and rifle.

    I go up to 2100 fps with gascheck in 30/30 and .308 Winchester with 170-200 gr boolits with no leading, and very good accuracy.

    For me, powder coat is the way to go.
    Maker of Silver Boolits for Werewolf hunting

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    To answer the original question.

    Barrel rifling is approximately .004" land to groove. PC is about the same hardness as pure copper plate but tougher, better bonded and a lot slicker. So if you create a sufficient build out of properly applied and cured PC then you have in fact created a polymer jacket. If the jacket is thick enough it is the bullet's jacket that seals, insulates and protects the inner bullet's core from torque spinup.

    For handguns bullets I single PC, which is sufficient even for pure lead.

    For full power rifle bullets I double PC going for a .003" build out. I don't worry about alloy at all as I shoot range scrap, which is anywhere in the 8-12 BIN. My ingots of range scrap is melted down from a 200 pound pot. My .003" is not a guess the build out was calculated by a Phd polymer physicist back in 2012 when I first got into PC for my 30/06 to provide a jacket sufficient for 50,000 pounds or more of chamber pressure.

    I do believe perfectly installed gas checks improve accuracy because they cover an imperfect bullet base and make it flat, but a gas check is not necessary just to protect the base from gas cutting as the PC will do that..

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy
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    From what is posted online, 9mm, .357mag and 40cal require a higher bhn than .38 and .45. I cast ingots from range scrap first, let it age for 6months and separate the ingots by estimated bhn lots using lead pencils. I don't use gas checks on them. I do use gas checks on my powder coated Lee .311-185gr bullets. The lead used was 50/50, WW and range scrap/tin.

  14. #54
    Boolit Buddy
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    "Can you just PC and (almost) forget about BHN?"

    I do.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multra View Post
    Isn't there a thread of someone PCing pure lead .45 acp?
    I played around a long long time ago with pure lead in 45 acp. I had a pistol that had shot some groups around 1.5" at 50 yards (yes 50) from a ransom rest using linotype bullets. I was playing with pure lead because I had a source and it was a known alloy, and I was curious. The best I got out of pure lead was 3" at 25 yards over 4.0 of Bullseye for a 200 grain bullet.

    With the gun in a ransom rest all of the fired bullets were going into a hole they created in the backstop about 75 yards down range. I was able to recover some fired pure lead bullets. The rifling land marks in the bullets were about 50% wider than a linotype bullet meaning they skidded a bit when entering the rifling IMHO.

    I never really drilled down back then into other alloys than lino and pure lead because they were the only for sure pure alloys I had avail to me.

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    From what is posted online, 9mm, .357mag and 40cal require a higher bhn than .38 and .45
    Shhh! Don't tell my 9mm and .357s this! They don't seem to be aware of this.

    I cast straight COWW, powder coat, then turn the oven off and let them cool slowly. I have only seen leading when I pushed 125s in a .357Mag 24-inch barrel (levergun) past 2200 fps. I don't really run max powder charges because I don't like to weigh each charge. So maybe my pressures are low? But the velocities seem to compare to jacketed.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master
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    To answer your question, Yes, BHN is not important with a properly coated and cured PC bullet. Hardness is a hold over from shooting cast bullets lubed with grease. PC is in fact build a jacketed bullet. A quick check of the pressure tables will tell you this. Do commercial bullet manufactures worry about the hardness of the inner core of a jacketed bullet or do they just use soft lead?

  18. #58
    Boolit Buddy maglvr's Avatar
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    "(I shoot at my house)" Not only is that dangerous if others are home, it may well ruin the value of the place should you decide to sell someday!
    The .357 Magnum......
    1935
    Major Douglas Wesson, using factory loads, which were a 158 gr. soft lead bullet, traveling 1515 fps, from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W, producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy.
    Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)
    Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)
    Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)
    Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot).

    It kind of makes one wonder, why today, it will bounce off anything bigger than a rabbit

  19. #59
    Boolit Master
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    If you compare a copper plated bullet with a copper jacket what is the difference other than the process? The difference is the thickness of the jacket and possibly the hardness of the jacket if the copper jacket alloyed for hardness.

    So consider the PC process, first the polymer must be properly applied and cured. If the PC hasn't reached full cure then it can leave residue in the barrel.This could all happen with a poor quality or softer thermoset polymer is selected; just because it is a powdered polymer doesn't mean they are all the same. Do you know what kind of polymer you are using or maybe mixing different polymers together with unknown results? The different polymers produce different characteristics including bond, toughness, elasticity, durability and hardness.

    If the polymer jacket is too thin then the inner core becomes an issue due torque spin up, just as it does when a thin copper plated bullet exceeds its recommended velocity. There again the type and quality of the polymer used can make a difference. Rifling is approximately .004" deep, the reason lubed cast bullet hardness is important is a soft alloy will only take so much pressure before the torque causes it to tear, while a harder bullet alloy resists tearing.

    A jacket of sufficient bond, hardness and thickness even with a soft alloy core does not teat as it rides the rifling. 10 years ago I discussed this issue with a Phd Polymer Physicist who knew nothing about PC bullets, but neither did anyone else. The professor calculated a .003" thermoset polymer build out would resist the torque spin up of 50k psi chamber pressure of a 30/06 i inquired about.

    I single PC my handgun bullets, but if I am loading full power loads I do a partial cure, double PC. I have found PC to be stable at in full power loads 30/06 loads as well as 3500+ fps in a 22-250. I personally find it amazing we can create a polymer bullet jacket in the first place and second that it works so well.

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy
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    My alloy is half stick on and half clip on, powdercoated, whether I shoot gas checked 300s at 1300+ out of a .45 or cowboy action 125 fnfp out of my revolvers with 2.7 grains of Clays, same alloy.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check