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Thread: Can you just PC and (almost) forget about BHN?

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Can you just PC and (almost) forget about BHN?

    I've decided to quit participating in the ammo shortage and start casting/loading again. I had quit before (like an idiot) because it was too easy and I didn't appreciate it (I shoot at my house). But, back then, I was getting to the point that I wanted to take it to the next level and life was getting in the way along with the elevated time requirements and so on... I was loading 45 acp and 270 Winhester. I used factory jacketed for both and PC cast WW for the 45. I also did 380, but I hate that gun. Anyway, my WW alloy is all much softer than what Lee recommends for the advertised pressures on my loads. Lee says that my 45 needs about 15 bhn and 9mm needs something close to what I get from straight pewter! But I see posts where guys are shooting PC'd lead that's anywhere north of 10. Some guys don't even test for bhn. The hardest WW batch I've ever gotten is 11 and most is sub-10. I didn't have any problems in my Glock.

    Now jacketed (I haven't tested it) I KNOW is a LOT harder than any lead alloy. And to raise a batch of WW lead up to 15 took 1/2 my pewter! That's not going to be cost effective - especially if I want over 20 for 9mm. So I started looking around some more. Some guys are putting in .5% - 2% Cu and some are even using .5% Zn on purpose! Cu is cheap, but the guys using Cu haven't reported back any numbers which makes me question if it's even worth it.

    Elvis Ammo amd Fortune Cookie both seem to say that they are using alloys in the 20's - which is A LOT of tin unless they are getting there with antimony. But that makes me question all the guys thst seem to be fine with WW as they come.

    So... does BHN matter in a pistol with PC?

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Normally I cast 10-12 bhn for pistol, 15-17 for rifle. Seems to work fine for me but none are driven hard.
    "EXPERT= Ex is a has been, spurt is a drip under pressure" Unknown

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Pewter is mostly TIN, a poor hardener. Use ~2% Sb for pistol and 3-4% for rifle. Heat treat if needed. PC does help.
    Whatever!

  4. #4
    Boolit Bub
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    I know TIN isn't the best hardener, but it's what I had on hand and I didn't think it was going to take that much when I started.

    2% Sb is fine to shoot for - if you happen to have a mass spectrometer laying around. But what if you don't know how much Sb is in your WW mix already? Add a few Oz and see if it gets you above 10?

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    I bought some superhard from rotometals and use that or my dwindling supply of linotype to harden. I make a 40 pound batch at a time.
    "EXPERT= Ex is a has been, spurt is a drip under pressure" Unknown

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    I think the question was about hardness when using PC? I have three types of lead, COWW, soft lead and a lot of range lead. I just came into some lino and plan to start using it based on spread sheet on this forum.

    I try to keep my bullets from being really soft but I don't worry about getting them super hard either. There are some who believe the lead can change shape but I wonder how anyone would know that. Unless it is really soft and you aren't trying to push them extremely fast, pour, coat, size, load and shoot. I would almost guarantee you will never have a problem. YMMV

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master
    white eagle's Avatar
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    So... does BHN matter in a pistol with PC?

    No,especially if you gas check boolits
    I have quit worrying about BHN long ago
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  8. #8
    Boolit Bub
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    Maybe I'll just make sure my 45 is at 10 and my 9mm is at 15 or better. I ordered some Antimony. I'll be using that instead of my TIN for the future. I have some lead that's actually at a BHN of 5. If I use it for smokeless, It's going to need a lot of help.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Isn't there a thread of someone PCing pure lead .45 acp?

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I regularly use alloy for pistols that I think is about BHN 9 or 10 at best. They are round nose but soft enough that the seating die flattens the noses. I PC them and they shoot fine in both my Ruger 357 revolver and my Henry Rifle. Good accuracy and no leading.
    Hick: Iron sights!

  11. #11
    Boolit Bub
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    I am PCing some soft lead for the 45, but that's for black powder.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    I have to wonder sometimes about the alloy recommendations from manufacturers. Lee says 1/10 tin/lead. Who uses that much tin? Seems absurd to me. I can't afford that. Other manuals list their loads for bullets made of pure linotype. I can't afford that either, seems wasteful.

    I've found that I can use a softer alloy with powder coating. I use primarily range scrap, with a little linotype to sweeten it depending on what I'm casting. I water drop out of the powder-coat oven. I don't test for hardness or even have a tester. Works for me.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    I had similar questions regarding BHN and got some very good answers in this thread:

    https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...etting-started

    Bottom line, Water Quench after PC to increase hardness. Save the expensive tin and antimony for other uses - like ~2% tin in your alloy for mold fill out and IDK what with antimony, that I already get in the alloy from the COWW's.
    Last edited by Land Owner; 04-19-2021 at 06:33 AM.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Paramax55 View Post
    Maybe I'll just make sure my 45 is at 10 and my 9mm is at 15 or better. I ordered some Antimony. I'll be using that instead of my TIN for the future. I have some lead that's actually at a BHN of 5. If I use it for smokeless, It's going to need a lot of help.
    If you want to add antimony, you’d do best to buy it alloyed with another metal. It takes an extremely high temp to get it to alloy with lead.

  15. #15
    Boolit Bub
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    Are you sure about the high temps? Copper alloys just fine with lead at normal temps. You just have to flux it so it doesn't oxidize. I was expecting antimony to be the same.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Paramax55 View Post
    Are you sure about the high temps? Copper alloys just fine with lead at normal temps. You just have to flux it so it doesn't oxidize. I was expecting antimony to be the same.
    It is.

    Just as when adding sugar to sweet tea. You don't have to have the sweet tea at the melting point of sugar.

    Antimony will dissolve in lead if you use the proper flux.

    OP.

    I use a BHN of 10-11 for almost all my shooting needs. You can shoot pure lead in 45 ACP with no problems as long as bullet fit is correct. I normally use Hi-Tek as a coating. The only times I go harder than 10-11 is for some 327FM loads and for rifle loads.
    NRA Benefactor.

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    I've never shot much rifle, so I'll probably just buy the rounds for that. I may play with AR rounds, but I'm not committed to it. I don't have anything against rifle - it's just not as much fun/cheap as pistol. Since nobody has had a vortex in the space-time continuum yet, I guess I'll just shoot for (pun) north of 10 on my BHN and run with it.

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  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    @paramx - just cast some, WD a few and compare BHN test. If BHN goes up on WD after a couple days, you have Sb. If it really goes up, too much Sb, add some pure. PCd pistol doesn't take much. And you have to watch fit as softer will come out smaller.
    Whatever!

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Jim22's Avatar
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    Since I started powder coating I have been casting softer boolits for my .357 Marlin. 49%COWW, 49% soft Pb, 2% Sn. No leading to about 1800 fps.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check