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Thread: Why so little on mixed buckshot loads?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Why so little on mixed buckshot loads?

    I have looked high and low all night for any information on buckshot loads using more than one size of buckshot. Thus far I have found a lot of semi-mythical BS about the "Malaysian load" used by the British in the 1950s, and a few links to the Aguila mini shot shell buckshot loads. Why isn't there more out there?

    I have been experimenting with this, keeping the overall weight of the payload within the limits from several loading manuals. And I have found that I can get a regular 12 gauge load of 12 pellets of #1 buckshot into a shell with tons of room to spare. So much that it rattles around. But not quite enough room for another layer of 3 #1 pellets. However, if I do alternating layers of 3 pellets of #1 and 3 pellets of F (0.22" diameter), I can get the same 4 layers of #1 and a total of 9 extra pellets of F, all fitting snugly in the shell. Without going over the maximum shot charge weight. So why isn't there more information on this kind of thing out there? Is there some taboo against it I haven't heard of? Is there some reason I shouldn't be doing this? I mean, I realize the 0.22" pellets aren't going to offer a ton of extra stopping power. They are a bit smaller than the regular 0.24" #4 buckshot. But extra hits are extra hits, aren't they? Has anybody else tried this? If so, how did it work out for you? What sizes did you use?

    -Mb

  2. #2
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    i have a 00 mold and a #4 mold and have loaded many duplex loads. Even some with #4 buck and #6 fine shot. i just figure out what fits and weight it. if your loading it doesnt matter if an once of shot is #9 or 000 buck

  3. #3
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    You hinted at the answer - maximum weight. The addition of smaller, less penetrating pellets slows the whole column of shot, diminishing the energy potential of the main pellets.

  4. #4
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    I would think the smaller shot would slow down quickly and the heavy shot would keep moving past the smaller shot opening the group up. This is just a guess but I don’t know ether .

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackers View Post
    You hinted at the answer - maximum weight. The addition of smaller, less penetrating pellets slows the whole column of shot, diminishing the energy potential of the main pellets.
    So I guess it depends on what your goals for the load are. You might be able to achieve a target weight in a smaller volume and make more room for powder.
    I'm a big fan of data-driven decisions. You want to make me smile, show me a spreadsheet! Extra points for graphs and best-fit predictive equations.

  6. #6
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    There is a theory that the heavier shot, if intermixed, will destroy the pattern by blowing through the smaller shot as it slows down. True or not? I don't know.

    A few decades ago Remington did market Turkey loads with two sizes of shot, 4&6 and maybe 2&4 or 6 come to mind. I seem to remember they loaded the heavier shot to the front. I never bought any, I wasn't turkey hunting at the time. Plus it was expensive and a lot heavier load than I wanted for squirrels when I was home on leave.

    I have no idea if it patterned well or not, but I haven't noticed it in stores for a while.

    Robert

  7. #7
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    The thing is, the longest shot inside my house is just under 23 yards. And that is from one end of the house, down the longest hallway, to the far side of the room at the other end. I don't think shot slowing down in the amount of time it takes to travel that far will be an issue. Also, with the way these are loaded into the shell, you have 12 #1 pellets forming a column in the center, and the 9 pellets of F sitting in the spaces around them. I will have to see how this patterns this week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mk42gunner View Post
    There is a theory that the heavier shot, if intermixed, will destroy the pattern by blowing through the smaller shot as it slows down. True or not? I don't know.

    A few decades ago Remington did market Turkey loads with two sizes of shot, 4&6 and maybe 2&4 or 6 come to mind. I seem to remember they loaded the heavier shot to the front. I never bought any, I wasn't turkey hunting at the time. Plus it was expensive and a lot heavier load than I wanted for squirrels when I was home on leave.

    I have no idea if it patterned well or not, but I haven't noticed it in stores for a while.

    Robert
    might be so with a turkey or goose load shot out at near 50 yards but i patterened alot of it at 25 and never seen where it pattern suffered.

  9. #9
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    I have read somewhere (Lyman Shotshell Loading manual?) that you shouldn’t mix shot sizes because the combination of large and small can cause in interference fit going down the tube and bulge the barrel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSB View Post
    I have read somewhere (Lyman Shotshell Loading manual?) that you shouldn’t mix shot sizes because the combination of large and small can cause in interference fit going down the tube and bulge the barrel.
    if that were true youd be in big trouble shooting slugs. Keep in mind that the lyman manual still promotes the bs about cast bullets needing to bump up to be accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    if that were true youd be in big trouble shooting slugs. Keep in mind that the lyman manual still promotes the bs about cast bullets needing to bump up to be accurate.
    Don’t confuse slugs and shot....two different subjects. Slugs travel at a somewhat uniform velocity down the tube. A sudden constriction (significant constriction) can easily bulge a shotgun barrel.

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    You should perform some penetration testing on ballistic gelatin to study the effects. I expect your larger shot would not penetrate as deeply, although the target may not notice the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSB View Post
    Don’t confuse slugs and shot....two different subjects. Slugs travel at a somewhat uniform velocity down the tube. A sudden constriction (significant constriction) can easily bulge a shotgun barrel.
    you could be right but in all the years ive shot ive never seen or even heard of an instance other them with a damascus barrel that let go anything lead bulging a barrel that wasnt restricted in some other way like with dirt snow ect that restricted the barrel. As long as lead has somewhere to expand i dont see it happening. It would take an awful lot of force for lead to deform steel. Id like to see a documented case of it happening in a modern steel barrel. I can say with all honesty ive shot at least 2k of my duplex 00 / #4 buck loads and havent even seen a weird hole in paper from a deformed pellet. I guess if your the paranoid type you could put some mica inbeween the balls.

  14. #14
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    What is your goal for using mixed size shot? For home defense, which you mentioned, how would you benefit from smaller shot mixed in with the buckshot?
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  15. #15
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    Simply put ...they don't pattern all that well .
    Remington had a "Turkey" load 12 ga. loaded with #4 and #5 shot in the same shell . Must not have been a big seller because I don't see it listed .
    Things like Buck and Ball have been done over the years but still the best , most accurate well patterning loads all have one size shot ... at least when it comes to buckshot .
    Give it a try and see how it works , you know what they say about building a better mouse trap !
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  16. #16
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    I am trying to figure out why anyone would do it.

    As to self-defense, increasing the payload is the last thing I would want. Reduced recoil is a lot more important to me. There is a reason they manufacture reduced recoil "tactical" shells.
    Don Verna


  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    you could be right but in all the years ive shot ive never seen or even heard of an instance other them with a damascus barrel that let go anything lead bulging a barrel that wasnt restricted in some other way like with dirt snow ect that restricted the barrel. As long as lead has somewhere to expand i dont see it happening. It would take an awful lot of force for lead to deform steel. Id like to see a documented case of it happening in a modern steel barrel. I can say with all honesty ive shot at least 2k of my duplex 00 / #4 buck loads and havent even seen a weird hole in paper from a deformed pellet. I guess if your the paranoid type you could put some mica inbeween the balls.
    Lloyd, I’m not trying to start (or finish) an argument here. My point is that if I had to believe somebody it would probably be the people who literally “wrote the book” on shotshell reloading. Also, it doesn’t take much force at all to damage a shotgun barrel. I was out one day with my brother hunting rabbits and he “dipped” his 870 barrel in the snow. He then shot at a rabbit and his barrel instantly looked like it was a flower petal on the end. It split in about five petals which looked like it were done on a machine.

  18. #18
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    I would have thought that the column of air in front of the payload would have pushed the snow out of the barrel before the shot got out.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodman14 View Post
    I would have thought that the column of air in front of the payload would have pushed the snow out of the barrel before the shot got out.
    The snow can, and does, make ice inside the barrel. You can prove this if you have a barrel you don’t need.

  20. #20
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    Ultimately you are asking about what is called a duplex load. I've tried them a number of times, mostly as a new reloader. There is nothing dangerous about it, I'm not sure what that nonsense is all about. It can apply to any shot size, or even shot and slug (buck and ball). You used to see them for turkey loads. The theory was that the smaller shot drafted the tighter patterning larger shot, and produced a tighter pattern for both. That is why you load the larger shot to the front. So why not load all larger shot if that patterned tighter? In reality it does nothing for a pattern that I have ever seen, good or bad. Generally you see relatively close shot sizes like 4 and 6 for turkey. I did play around with trying to make a duck/goose load with steel shot, with something like 3 and BBB in the same shell. Ultimately I ended up with a load that wasn't that effective for geese, and didn't have pattern density for ducks. Inside of 25 yards is would work for both, but #3 will kill a goose that close anyway, and BBB would as well for that matter, so nothing is gained. About the only useful duplex load I can think of is buck and ball. Some buckshot on bottom, and a slug or round ball on top makes a rather nasty round for close range defensive work. That big round ball or slug can offer great penetration over a shell completely of buckshot, and yet still offers some additional wound paths and forgiveness that the few buckshot offer. I might consider buck and ball if I were ever to track a wounded grizzly bear or leopard. (I'm not even joking about those, I'd love to hunt both)

    To recap, there is no pattern advantage I have ever found. Small size changes are pointless, as in a bag of shot, even the best stuff varies in size somewhat. Bigger size changes leaves you with a less effective shell, both reducing pattern density, and sacrificing shot that will penetrate. In your case, it would be way easier to add an 1/8" felt wad under the shot.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
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