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Thread: Reduced velocity for decreasing wind drift

  1. #21
    Boolit Buddy
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    Here's a quote from Hornady. "Ballistic Coefficient (BC) values can, and usually do change in value with changes in velocity. Most bullets exhibit a lowering BC as velocity slows. The extent of how much a BC will change depends on each unique bullet shape. When comparing BCs of different bullets, it is important to use an apples-to-apples approach."

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    I do believe it might be useful to have subsonic loads - but only for the shorter ranges, say out to 300-400. Any further out, the vertical will show up much more and negate any wind drift benefit. At least, that's what I believe - and that's also the reason I built a heavy-bullet fast-twist 32-20. I should really chrono it, but it seems to work well out to 300m. It seems to like a 152gr bullet, but a 173gr Pope-style shoots well too. I'm now waiting on a David Mos mould which should be tailored to the rifle/chamber combination. But 1st I would like to be able to shoot, haven't been able to fire a single round in 6+ months...

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy
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    Talk about timing, I just started reading my copy of the “Modern Schuetzen Rifle” by Schwartz Dell. In it they mention numerous time the benefits of subsonic loads to reduce wind drift. Of course they are shooting at 200 yds.
    Chill, I would certainly be interested in those books you mention!
    Leadpot, sounds like you have the best of both the old world and new world with the luxury of a long range at home. Please don’t tell me you just open your window at home and your bench rest is in the den.
    Don, I’m going to start to be a bit more aware of the wind...especially the subtleties.
    Thanks again guys all good info,
    Cheers Richard

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Richard on the range sometimes its the flags that are lying, and it's the mirage that needs to be heeded.
    There are a couple of ranges I've shot Creedmoor on, that the mirage actually has 2 or sometimes 3 layers, and if you don't look past an thru the first , things won't go particularly well.
    Lots of voodoo, involved in getting the bullet on target sometimes.
    Couple of notable quotes I've over heard from top spotters, "well looks like with these conditions every shot is going to be starting a new match" and " let me roll these chicken bones again before you get in the gun"
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy
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    Don, I’m sure that takes a lot of experience to see through two or three layers of mirage,in fact, I’ve never New there was a phenomenon like that but it does not surprise me. It’s like seeing wave patterns at sea you can see two but seeing 3 or more just takes time and observation; or like seeing Bonefish, not known as the Grey Ghost for nothing, out of the water they are silver in the water they reflect the bottom and almost disappear from sight, sometimes only their shadow gives them away....takes a long time to learn to see them too. Thanks Don for the help
    Richard

  6. #26
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    No Richard I cant use the field anymore. My Neighbor passed and his Daughter is anti everything. She even called the sheriff on his best friend for walking his dog on the waterways in the field.
    But yes, I can shoot out of my kitchen window or from the front porch where I have a bench into a large berm I pushed up at the fence line

    People are changing, not just here but all over this great Country.

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Richard I think a lot of the attraction to this game beyond the nostalgia of shooting 100 plus year old technology, is the challenge that simple basic things mother nature can throw at you.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #28
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    Leadpot, sorry to hear that, no accounting for some people, sad really.
    Don, when you think about it I’m as guilty as others when it comes to ignoring things governed by nature, human body included. Some of nature whims you can’t control but just need to learn to minimize their effect as in reading the wind or mirage, same thing for offhand practice. I spent most of my time in pistol and rifle shooting trying to get the best groups and minimize the “human factor” , spending that time and money too on toys and tools and much less time on reading wind or offhand practice. I think one can see that in the gun magazines, at least most of them on the bookstore shelf, touting the latest gun or gadget and very little of wind “doping”, physical conditioning or offhand shooting, no bucks to be made in that area I suppose. Like I mentioned I’m as guilty as charged in this area.
    Off on a tangent, but I wonder what would be the result in this country if gun safety and shooting was taught in grade schools with air rifles and smallbore was taught in high schools. What am I smoking lol. Fat chance that ever happening.
    Richard

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Richard there was a time not so terribly long ago when high schools had rifle teams, and shotgun teams. Some isolated places still do.
    Take a look at the sheer number of youngsters participating in the 4H shooting sports.. and the number of young hunters.
    There is still some hope
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  10. #30
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    One more thing if you take or buy on occasion the BPC News, the next issue is supposed to have a full write up about the Desert International match held this past March at the Ben Avery Range. The load details ( altho the only patched shooter was Ray Hanson with his muzzle loader) will reveal some stuff that is likely to make some collective heads expode.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don McDowell View Post
    Richard there was a time not so terribly long ago when high schools had rifle teams, and shotgun teams. Some isolated places still do.
    Take a look at the sheer number of youngsters participating in the 4H shooting sports.. and the number of young hunters.
    There is still some hope
    I sincerely hope that the times change but I'm not holding my breath.

    You should have seen the consternation on the face of my principal when I and a few parents approached him with the concept of a fully funded air-rifle club at the middle school. I thought he was going to have a coronary. After that it was all obstacles, one after another after another.

    I'm old enough to remember the days when we could go to school, put the .22 with ammo in the coat room, and go hunting when the school day was over.

  12. #32
    Boolit Buddy
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    I guess that news will be in the Summer issue of BPCNews.
    I remember the same and at 15 bought .22 ammo and shotgun shells at the local hardware store. 82 years young, in my mind...my body has it own thoughts though.
    Best Richard

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy
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    Well I’m getting serious about trying subsonic loads! The club I’m going to join hold a BPCR 200yd, 10 shot, Benchrest shoot twice a month. As a refresher, my current load in my 45-70 is 81.5gns Swiss F1.5, 530gn PP elliptical MV 1250fps. I want to use the same bullet seated almost completely into the rifling as I do now and get the velocity to 1050 to 1100 FPS. For no good reason I’d rather not use case fillers (although it may come to that). My thoughts run to filler wads something like a half inch thick veggie wad or two quarter inch thick veggie wads. An extreme thought is machining a brass filler to press into the case to reduce case volume. It would have a hole in it naturally for the primer flame and covered with a newspaper wad to prevent powder from getting into the extended flash hole. Would only need to make around 15 so that’s not too bad. Seating the PP bullet deep into the case may be one option though. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions ? Any idea on where to find thick veggie wads?
    Thanks guys,
    Richard

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    1f powder, or as you say seating the bullet deeper.
    To much wad stack can cause you grief.
    If the leading edge of the patch engages the rifling an 1/8 inch or so it'll likely shoot well.
    Have never quite grasped on to the need to load a 45-90 load in a 45-70 case.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  15. #35
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    Back in the late 50's to very early 60s I rode a bus and train to high school rifle team practice with my cased rifle. No one even blinked an eye. The good ol' dayze that'll never return.

    Loading a PPB .1" into a .45-70 case full of 1-1/2F sorta makes it into a kinda virtual .45-90 whether one likes it or not.

  16. #36
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    Here are the two books referenced. Some fun reading along with some hard math and science. Even covers info on the big Naval Guns.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails resizedDSCN2354.jpg  
    Chill Wills

  17. #37
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    Go with a heavy for caliber boolit subsonic. Maybe 750.gr.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #38
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    It would be interesting to see actual Doppler radar printouts verse the ballistic programs based on models.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  19. #39
    Boolit Buddy
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    Fiberoptik did you mean 570 grains. I was looking to see if BACO had any but no.
    Chill, thanks for the book titles, appreciate it .
    Don, I can understand what you are saying and compared to most of you here I’m a novice when it comes to BPCR shooting, and most of my BPCR load development come from this PP site in general. Your comment about not understanding why 45-90 loads are put in a 45-70 case was never, to my knowledge, ever addressed here before. It was always about getting the bullet shoved so far up the spout that to get it any further up would require a breech seater. It would be nice if the was a factory 45-60 case. I will try seating the PP bullet deep in the case with about a 1/8 of paper into the rifling, my loads now are shooting under 1 moa but wind is my nemesis that I need to come to grips with too.
    Thanks guys, Richard

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatsguide View Post
    ... I will try seating the PP bullet deep in the case with about a 1/8 of paper into the rifling, my loads now are shooting under 1 moa but wind is my nemesis that I need to come to grips with too.
    Thanks guys, Richard
    Under 1moa at what distance and with what shooting position?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check