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Thread: Hybrid Boolits

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Hybrid Boolits

    This is going to be a long thread so I'm going to post it in a couple of segments. By learning and mixing together different techniques that people on this site have pioneered, I've come up with something that's both familiar and a little different at the same time. It's a powder coated boolit, but not powder coated in the usual way, and it's a lubricated boolit, but not lubricated in the usual way. I didn't invent this process as a whole, I just took pieces of techniques that other casters were doing and used them together.

    I've been experimenting over the last 6 months with methods to fix the problem of powder coating causing the noses of bore riding cast bullets from getting too fat. I've got several 30 caliber rifles that I load for, but when I try the traditional shake and bake method of powder coating with these bullets they will no longer chamber. Luckily I have a 7.65x53, so they don't go to waste, but what I really needed was a way to get my existing molds to work.

    There have been several different methods used to attempt to fix this problem: coating the molds with high temp paint to decrease the nose diameter, masking the nose while powder coating, sizing the nose, etc. The first thing I attempted was to machine a nose sizing die that would screw into a single stage reloading press just like a regular reloading die. This "nose die" is able to accept neck bushings from almost any manufacturer, and in any diameter. I chose Redding neck bushings. I read through Buckshot's threads about making nose sizing dies that work in lubricator/sizers for some insights. I also machined a boolit ejector that's similar to the one that BTsniper uses for his swage dies. It was a complete failure. The die would resize the nose, but it was impossible to maintain concentricity between the nose and the driving bands. Mechanical solutions to this were getting close to crossing the line into swaging, which is fine, but I'm looking for a fix for the cast boolits and that would be too big of a step.

    The next fiasco was to attempt to just use the cast boolits in the way that they were designed and lube them. I've been casting and reloading for over 40 years. When powder coating came along it was a God send. I had forgotten how much of a mess lubed bullets were. I know, most of the casters on this site use and prefer lubricated bullets. I used them for decades, but I find many more benefits from powder coating. PC works amazingly well for pistol bullets: bore riding rifle bullets are the only ones that have given me any problems. I'll spare the details, but after several weeks of trying, lubricated rifle bullets just aren't for me. I did learn some valuable information along the way though, and applied it to the process that I'm using.

    The first good idea that worked really well came from this thread: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...g-cast-boolits
    Using an empty cartridge casing and inserting the boolit into it backwards worked great. It's not necessary to have the casing mouth grip the boolit, and is actually better if the boolit can just slide out after the driving bands are coated. The first thing that I do is drill out the primer hole. Once in a while a boolit gets slightly stuck in the case, and won't slide out. When that happens I just insert a small dowel or rod into the case through the enlarged primer hole and use that to seperate the case and boolit. In the photo I've run a 270 case up a little way into a 7x57 resizing die to create a "holder" for 7mm boolits (I don't own a 270)

    I use boolits cast from water quenched COWW alloy, and run them through a Lee push through sizer before powder coating to size the driving bands and seat the gas check. In my experience it's been better to seat the gas check before powder coating. On this first sizing I give the boolits a small squirt of the lanolin/isopropyl alcohol that I use for resizing brass, but that may not be necessary for others, and for me it adds a step because then I have to de-grease the boolits before powder coating.

    When I do the powder coat I hold the empty case so that the boolit won't slide out of it, then when I put the base of the boolit into the tub full of powder and airsoft BB's I gently hold the base of the boolit against the bottom of the tub to hold it in the casing. It only takes about 5 seconds of swirling in the powder & BB's and the driving bands are coated. I add a little more powder to the tub fro this process than I usually would for the standard shake-n-bake. Two or three taps of the casing against the edge of the tub knocks off any excess powder. Then I just let the boolits slide out of the case mouth and onto a piece of parchment paper that's going into the powder coating toaster oven. stand them up in rows and bake just like normal. The result is that just the driving bands and the gas check get powder coated, and the nose stays bare. That's half of the process; the rest in the next post.

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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    OK so the powder coating went just like Gun-adian described in the thread I attached in my previous post. Now it's on to the next step. The first time that I ran the boolits through a push through sizer it was to seat the gas check. But now that they've been powder coated the driving bands are larger in diameter, so they get sent back through the sizer again. Now it's time to lube the bullets. I'd read through the threads about making Felix lube, Ben's red, Ben's blue, and Ben's liquid lube, (BLL). I tried traditional lubing and then over coating with BLL. I had some problems, and it just wasn't working out. But, after reading this thread I had an idea: https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.p...es-begin.1434/

    Alox over powder coat isn't really necessary, but what about a hard wax coating over the exposed nose of the boolit? The bore riding design is, in theory, supposed to work with no lubricant on the actual nose. But a hard dry super thin coating of carnuba based wax on the nose couldn't hurt. I tried swirl lubing the PC'd bore riding boolits in a tiny amount of Lundmark liquid paste wax. No Alox, just the wax. It only takes a small amount, just a few drops of the liquid wax to do a lot of boolits. Then I set them out in a paper lined disposable pan to dry and waited. And waited. And waited.

    Three days later the liquid wax was still liquid. When I touched the boolits it left an oily film on my fingers. I'd shaken the bottle of wax good before using it, and had only used a small amount. This stuff was not drying. This is where "nothing to loose" kicks in and I decided to dry this stuff in the toaster oven. I lined a disposable aluminum tray with a single sheet of ordinary typing paper and poured about 120 boolits into it; enough to make a single layer in the pan. Then I cooked the boolits at 250 degrees for about 20 minutes. The result is that the boolits are now covered in a hard, completely dry film that will not attract lint or dust, and can be stored just like powder coated boolits. They won't stick together, won't melt lube in high temperatures, won't attract dirt, and most importantly - they chamber and shoot just like they should.

    I tried out the first batch of RCBS 30-165-Sil in a bolt action 7.62x39 last week and they shot pretty good. It was windy, my target was wobbling a little, I wasn't at my best (I was using an empty Gatorade as a rest), and it was the first time out of the gate for that particular rifle, but I was easily getting 1.5" groups at 50 yards without really trying. On a better day I'm sure that I can get better groups. At the end of the day the barrel was shiny as a mirror.

    Making boolits this way is a lot of work and it's not for everybody. If you can get PC'd bore riders to shoot well with the traditional shake-n-bake method, that's awesome. It wasn't happening for me so I had to go in another direction. It takes more time and effort to make boolits this way, but for me they really work good. I'm excited now because I can start load development and see what I can do with these. Before I couldn't even get rounds with these boolits to chamber, let alone shoot. Thanks to the casters and reloaders on this site for all the pioneering work that they've put into casting technology, and for sharing the information that helps other shooters to improve their skills.

    The last photo is of RCBS 7mm-145-Sil, Lee C309-160-R, RCBS 30-165-Sil, and Lyman 311299.


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  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master


    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
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    Interesting idea. Maybe try some Johnson’s paste wax thinned with acétone for lube.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I do similar with the Lee C457-500F in my 45-70. But I do use the NOE nose sizer that scrapes the powder coat off the nose in sizing. I use a dip of the original BLL (bills Liquid lube) on the nose after seating (Recluse 45-45-10 will also work.) It does harden for me. It will shoot a 1 in group at 100 yds out of my Handi rifle. That 500 grainier kicks like a mule even with lite loads.
    There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism—by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide. Ayn Rand

  5. #5
    Boolit Master nueces5's Avatar
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    Hello, very well explained.
    The problem you had is that the nose increased in size and did not allow to carry the boolit to mount on the throat?
    I don't think I've ever had that problem on my Mauser, it has excessive freebore.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master
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    That is quite a method. Interesting for sure.
    Don Verna


  7. #7
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    I have found that 32 S&W long cases fit snug on my 30 cal bore riders and can be left on when powder coating shake and bake and then baking in the oven. After baking remove the cases leaving a clean edge at the driving band and I then dip the preheated boolits into a solution of carnauba wax ,lithium lube and white spirits. This is a very thin solution and the heated boolits dry leaving a very fine film in about 30 minutes.I then run them through a sizer (normally .314) . Accuracy is superb in my Norinco 7.62x39 bolt rifle and very good in my 308 and 303 rifles. I shoot far more with my 7.62x39 than any other centre fire and have good stability whether subsonic with a silencer or 1800 fps without. My favorite boolit is 220 grain .
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master dikman's Avatar
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    Hi-Tek coating? It leaves a minimal coating on the boolit.
    As for dipping in the pc, would using the powder in a vibrating case cleaner be easier? It apparently partially fluidizes the powder.

    Just a couple of idle thoughts.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I have some Johnson's paste wax. Thinning it with acetone just leaves a film of paste wax after the acetone evaporates. This film isn't hard, is sticky to the touch, can be wiped off, and attracts dust and lint. The baked on Lundmark is hard and dry.
    Just a personal preference, I like PC, and haven't tried Hi-Tek. The PC works for me. The colors that I've seen the best coverage and performance with are Smoke's signal blue and flame red, and Eastwood Ford light blue. Other colors may give a good coat, but these three work the best for me.
    It only takes about 5 seconds to swirl the base of the boolit in the powder coating tub to get complete coverage. One of the reasons that I like using an empty cartridge shell to hold the bullet is because, not only will it keep the PC off the nose, but the coated boolit slides easily out of the case mouth onto the baking platform. The boolit is easily held in the case while swirling because the base of the boolit is touching the bottom of the tub. If I tried sticking the base of the boolit into a vibratory cleaner the boolit might just slide out of the case and fall into the cleaner.
    Thanks for the input, it's always welcome.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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ID:	292974 I'm bringing back this zombie thread because I finally have some range reports. I shoot on public lands, and they were closed because of fire danger. My shooting spot only reopened in the middle of November. I tried several different loads, some with the baked on wax and others with an alox coating. The calibers that I shot were 30-06, 7.65x53, 308 and 7.62x39 (.308 bore), all from bolt actions.

    First off, every single round chambered easily. This was the whole reason to behind this project: powder coating boolits of the bore riding design was causing the nose to get so fat that the cartridges wouldn't chamber. Attempts to size just the nose were causing the nose to become off center from the driving bands. The non-concentric bullets would chamber, but were inaccurate. Learning from the example of other's on this forum I devised a way to powder coat just the driving bands and leave the nose section bare. With a lubricated boolit there will be some slight and very thin lube residue left in the bore after firing a few shots. There are no lube grooves in the nose area of the silhouette and bore riding designs that I like to shoot, but I didn't feel good about shooting dry lead down the bore with these partially powder coated boolits, as there would be no thin film of lube to contact the nose. To calm those possible bore leading fears I decided to both powder coat and lubricate the slugs. The only question was how to do it quickly and efficiently?

    I tried two separate processes; the first was to swirl lube the finished boolits in a few drops of liquid paste wax, then to dry the wax in a toaster oven at about 250 degrees (because after days of experimenting I discovered that even in 100 degree temperatures the liquid paste wax never dries). That was a hassle and takes too much time. It already takes longer than normal to powder coat the driving bands, and this process wasn't what I was looking for. But, because I produced a couple of hundred boolits this way I might as well test them and see how they work. The second process was to load the boolits into their cartridge, then take a small brush and quickly paint a small amount of alox on the exposed nose of the boolit. I set the rounds in an open cartridge box for a couple of days and let the alox dry on. This process was much faster and easier.

    How did they shoot? Exactly like cast boolits are supposed to! I was shooting the Lyman 311299 in 30-06 and 308, the RCBS 30-165-Sil in 7.62x39, and the Lyman #311284 in 7.65x53. All of the cartridges were grouping in about an inch at 50 yards. Now that I know that these boolits work I can start doing some load development and shooting out to 100 yards with (hopefully) small groups. There was no difference in performance between the baked on wax boolits and the ones with alox on the nose, so the wax isn't worth the effort. Speaking of effort, why go to all of the effort of powder coating just the driving bands? Because if I didn't those targets would be blank! This process is more tedious than shake-n-bake powder coating, but it offers a way to keep the nose from getting too fat to chamber. On top of that the first results seem to indicate that there may be some accuracy potential to explore here. I'm calling this thing a "hybrid boolit" because it's partially powder coated and partially lubricated. If your having good results with powder coating or regular lubricated boolits then this process would be just taking up your time unnecessarily, but if you like PC boolits, but they make the nose too fat, this might be one of the ways to solve that problem.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master



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    Interesting - Thinking about trying the Bands only Powder Coating process as described. Holiday activities starting; so may have to wait until after the New Year. I like the idea of 270/3006 style cases as a Boolit Holder for the nose. I have attempted coating the driving bands with PC a few years ago by holding each boolit with forceps; by did not work out well and I gave up on it.
    Mustang

    "In the beginning... the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    How about this for a holder get a piece of brass tubing thin wall the right od or very close to it and a long set of tweezers. Solder the tubing to the jaws of the tweezers. then with a jewelers saw or dremil .015 thick cut off blade split the tubing on center both sides. Plastic tubing could be glued to the tweezers and then split with an exacto blade.
    Looked on online metals.com and most brass tubing is 310 id. OD wouldnt really matter a lot but for weight. .375 od with .310 hole would be a .030 wall thickness. All that would be needed is a length as long as the longest nose bullet your shooting.

    Once assembled the tweezers would need to be tuned to be open larger than the bullet so releasing them would drop the bullet. the tube could also be soldered at a comfortable angle for you to coat and set the bullets down. A small slide could be made if holding the tweezers closed bothers your hands.

    Rethinking a little more a case neck or pistol case could be sacrificed to use in the tweezers also.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Why not just tumble lube the pc'd bullet with 45/45/10 or the newer version of 45/45/10???

    I tl all my pc'd rifle bullets with 45/45/10 anymore. I was getting these black streaks when pushing the pc'd rifle bullets over 2700fps.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Using the 45/45/10 tl on the pc'd bullets stopped this.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master BNE's Avatar
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    Very interesting thread. Watching to learn!
    I'm a Happy Clinger.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check