ATF Regulations/Rules

[sparky45]

So, I've been told by "a internet authority" that it's against Fed regs to cast Lead bullets and sell ANY of them without having a Licence to manufacture. Is that so, and if it is, when is Joe gonna come for the perps?

[Multra]

You legally need an 06 FFL to sell cast lead bullets.

(a) No person shall engage in the business of … manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:

(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

[JimB..]

Actually you may not “engage in the business” but that doesn’t mean that you can’t sell some.

People cast bullets, change preferences, unload extras, swap stuff, etc all the time, as far as I know none of that has been characterized as “engag[ing] in the business.”

[cwtebay]

I posted a while ago about a fairly large amount of lead sheeting that I aquired. Several of my buddies wanted to cast bullets and sell them for various organization's benefit. I contacted the BATF who said exactly what was listed above.
So we cast sinkers instead. And yes - bullet sinkers were included!

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[flint45]

Hey it’s the AFT now .

[Shawlerbrook]

Unfortunately, even lead sinkers are illegal in many places.

[jdfoxinc]

No it's officially the BATFE.

[white eagle]

So, I've been told by "a internet authority" that it's against Fed regs to cast Lead bullets and sell ANY of them without having a Licence to manufacture. Is that so, and if it is, when is Joe gonna come for the perps?

yes thats so but you can sell scrap lead
if you get my meaning

[cwtebay]

No it's officially the BATFE.

You are correct, thank you for pointing that out.

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[JonB_in_Glencoe]

“engage in the business” is further defined elsewhere in the 1968 Gun control Act as providing a livelihood.
The 1986 Firearms Owners protection Act loosened that somewhat, allowing a unlicensed person to legally buy/swap/sell items prohibited for selling without a License, if it isn't providing a livelihood and/or engaging in Business. Think "garage sale".
Disclaimer: this is my interpretation, I am not a Lawyer or a Legislator or a agent of the AFT.

[Petrol & Powder]

The response by JimB in post #3 is spot on.
The key phrase is "engage in the business". There is a distinction between occasional sales and engaging in the business of selling components.

The government makes a strong distinction when they wish to make ANY sales illegal. For example, any sale or distribution of a controlled substance, regardless of the amount is illegal. Any distribution of a firearm to a convicted felon is unlawful, even if it only occurs once.
By including the language "engaged in the business" as opposed to "any distribution", the government is conveying the nature of the law.

It is not the government's intention to criminalize ALL sales of ammunition components and if they had wanted to do that, they certainly could have written the law to reflect that intention.

That does not mean it would be wise to test where the boundary is between occasional sales and "engaged in the business".

Let's say your neighbor is going duck hunting and says he cannot find any suitable steel shot for sale. You say that you have a spare box and he offers to pay you for it. I don't think any judge would find that you were "engaged in the business" of selling shotgun ammunition.
Now, let's say you set up a garage sale in your driveway every weekend for 4 months. Every weekend you display hundreds of boxes of handloaded ammunition. That's probably going to be seen as "engaged in the business"

I know it's not a well defined regulation but sometimes that's the way it is.

To be prosecuted under this licensing scheme, the government would need to prove the defendant was "engaged in the business" of selling ammunition components. While that's a bit fuzzy, the stakes are really high if you're wrong. The court gets to define "engaged in the business " and the defendant doesn't get to substitute their interpretation for the court's interpretation.

There's a similar distinction for private pilots. A pilot that takes two of his buddies on a fishing trip once a year and they split the cost of the fuel, is not "engaged in the business" of commercial air transportation. A pilot that makes that flight every weekend and advertises the service.....is probably going to lose his pilot's license.

A little common sense goes a long way.

[jim147]

No it's officially the BATFE.

The bureau of "trying" to take my fun away.

[Multra]

The response by JimB in post #3 is spot on.
The key phrase is "engage in the business". There is a distinction between occasional sales and engaging in the business of selling components.

The government makes a strong distinction when they wish to make ANY sales illegal. For example, any sale or distribution of a controlled substance, regardless of the amount is illegal. Any distribution of a firearm to a convicted felon is unlawful, even if it only occurs once.
By including the language "engaged in the business" as opposed to "any distribution", the government is conveying the nature of the law.

It is not the government's intention to criminalize ALL sales of ammunition components and if they had wanted to do that, they certainly could have written the law to reflect that intention.

That does not mean it would be wise to test where the boundary is between occasional sales and "engaged in the business".

Let's say your neighbor is going duck hunting and says he cannot find any suitable steel shot for sale. You say that you have a spare box and he offers to pay you for it. I don't think any judge would find that you were "engaged in the business" of selling shotgun ammunition.
Now, let's say you set up a garage sale in your driveway every weekend for 4 months. Every weekend you display hundreds of boxes of handloaded ammunition. That's probably going to be seen as "engaged in the business"

I know it's not a well defined regulation but sometimes that's the way it is.

To be prosecuted under this licensing scheme, the government would need to prove the defendant was "engaged in the business" of selling ammunition components. While that's a bit fuzzy, the stakes are really high if you're wrong. The court gets to define "engaged in the business " and the defendant doesn't get to substitute their interpretation for the court's interpretation.

There's a similar distinction for private pilots. A pilot that takes two of his buddies on a fishing trip once a year and they split the cost of the fuel, is not "engaged in the business" of commercial air transportation. A pilot that makes that flight every weekend and advertises the service.....is probably going to lose his pilot's license.

A little common sense goes a long way.

Keep in mind you would potentially be arguing this in front of a judge against a gov agency that gets to make its own laws/interpretations and determine intent. IMO not really worth it to get $10 from some bullets. If you want to play it safe just swap for some lead or another style of bullet.

[JimB..]

Keep in mind you would potentially be arguing this in front of a judge against a gov agency that gets to make its own laws/interpretations and determine intent. IMO not really worth it to get $10 from some bullets. If you want to play it safe just swap for some lead or another style of bullet.

Your misconception is common, and carefully cultivated by the agency that you fear. Try to step outside that conditioning.

[David2011]

Keep in mind you would potentially be arguing this in front of a judge against a gov agency that gets to make its own laws/interpretations and determine intent. IMO not really worth it to get $10 from some bullets. If you want to play it safe just swap for some lead or another style of bullet.

The gubment may not distinguish between swapping bullets for cash and swapping them for something else of value.

[reddog81]

That does not mean it would be wise to test where the boundary is between occasional sales and "engaged in the business".

That's what it basically comes down to... Do you want to get into an argument with the AFT over whether or not you engaged in the business of selling bullets?

When buying the lead did you intend to use it for commercial purposes?
When casting the bullets did you intend to sell them?
How many sales did you make?
How much money did you gross and what were your profits?
Did you report that income on your tax return?
Blah, Blah, Blah and so forth.

Of course there's people out there selling bullets everyday and they'll never be hassled so what difference does it make if you sell some of your surplus? Sell to people you know, keep your mouth shut about it and you'll probably be fine.

[Geezer in NH]

I say if you have an extra 25-30K to burn go ahead and sell them. That amount is what a defense will start at when they bust you for it and remember the no more able to own firearms. Go ahead tickle the beast.

[Petrol & Powder]

Can anyone provide an example of someone being prosecuted for manufacturing and selling cast bullets without a license?

An ACTUAL case, complete with a name, jurisdiction and date that can be verified.

Yes, it is illegal to "engage in the business" of manufacturing ammunition without holding a valid 06 FFL, but seriously - has some guy selling a few cast bullets ever been convicted,....or even prosecuted?

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not encouraging anyone to violate the law.
But - We can't even get federal prosecutors to enforce laws related to serious criminal activity such as: Illegally re-entering the county after being deported for a felony, Human trafficking, Trafficking heroin and methamphetamine or controlling a criminal enterprise.

It wouldn't be wise to test the limit between occasional sales and "engaging in the business" but the reality is the feds rarely do anything.
AND, if for some strange reason they suddenly decided to go after someone for a minor transgression, a judge and a jury would decide if selling a few cast bullets meet the requirement of "engaging in the business". Neither the ATF or the prosecutor has the say over that determination.

[1hole]

I don't trust government bureaucrats at any level. It hardly matters what the "law" says, if one of them decides to stomp on a deplorable pee-on citizen for any reason he wishes the rules will be bent to serve what they want and their conviction trap rates are over 95%. General Flynn was caught in their trap when they got him to plead "guilty" to a lie; all they needed to extort that "confession of guilt" from him was to first bankrupt him and then threaten the same for his son.

Only when we grasp the depths of how amoral our government (the Swamp) really is can we begin understand why/how selective they are in who they ignore and who they prosecute and how unscrupulous their methods and how diabolical they are and how rotten our whole "justice" system is. God help us .... I worked as a contract employee to government for most of my employed life; I know them. God help YOU if one of them thinks your scalp would look good on his record. Well, to be fair, not all govies are dangerously self seeking drones but those who are give the remaining 10% a bad name.

Thus, to be as safe as is possible from the federal DoJ, FBI, IRS and BATFE batmen, et al, I sometimes give away small amounts of my cast bullets but I will sell none.