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Thread: Duplex loads

  1. #41
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    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
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    Does using duplex loads reduce the smoke cloud?

  2. #42
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    Not that I can tell, still using 54 gr BP in my 1873 replicant 45-70s.
    Larry Gibson

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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    The cable I use is plastic coated and the threaded parts are brass. I can’t see how it could damage the muzzle. I like the idea of a squirt bottle from the receiver side. I never thought of doing that. You still have to push the patch from the muzzle end. Doesn’t that push anything into the receiver?
    Greg
    1) cleaning rods - I live in redsoil country, there is always ultra fine red dust and it is super abrasive, no way to prevent some contamination on plastic rods or anything like that. I never use anything in the bore without a muzzle protector to prevent contact - it you live in clean country maybe its not a worry ?
    2) gunk in the receiver - gun is upside down in a cradle - loose patch drops out as soon as it clears the chamber - or use a soft bristle brush - just one pass to disturb the softened fouling then the next flush clears it out the muzzle - usually the third patch is clean, one more flush to be sure and patch it dry (double patches for that) then WD40 . cradle and rod, flush bottle, tin of flannelette patches and a gallon of water live in the back of my workshop ready to use - the whole process takes only a couple of minutes.

  4. #44
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    GregLaROCHE's Avatar
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    Interesting. Thanks.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    I use no larger than 7% 4227. It seems 10% gives no edge on fouling but does place one near the upper pressure limits for a BP cartridge/rifle.

  6. #46
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    About 1960 I was shooting a Winchester 92 .44 carbine with the weak and thin old balloon head cases. The number one problem was bullets pushing into the case in the magazine. Paternal advice was to load with black powder, nicely compressed, and crimp the case over the front of the bullet with the WRACo reloading tool. This did away with case resizing as well. Fouling of the rifle and the cases was annoying, but approached trivial when I went duplex. The recipe of the time (mine) was 2 gns shotgun Ballistite on the primer (9 gns was a full charge) and 30 gns #4 Curtis and Harvey on top of that. There was still some modest compression of the charge. That load shot as well as anything else I used, and with a soft hollow point bullet killed a lot of pigs. Bullet lube was beeswax and mutton fat.

    My uncle loaded .44-40 in even older WRACo black powder cases with the small primers. To ensure reliable ignition he put a .22 short case of black powder mixed in with the regular 15 gn charge of Dupont SR80.

    Way back, Ideal made a powder thrower with two reservoirs, one for black and one for smokeless. Both throws of the handle produced something. I think it was intended to load smokeless with a priming charge of black.

  7. #47
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    6.6gr Reloder 7
    25gr Black Powder

    Certainly worth further testing, however, this is probably the only load I will get a chance to test. Certainly looks plausible to modify the load to increase the velocity to 1,300fps and remain well below unsafe pressures.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    Way back, Ideal made a powder thrower with two reservoirs, one for black and one for smokeless. Both throws of the handle produced something. I think it was intended to load smokeless with a priming charge of black.
    In the day they were mostly used the other way around. A small charge of smokeless was used under BP to reduces fouling issues.

    https://www.reloadingtool.com/schoye...measure-page-2

    I have both #5 and #6's https://www.reloadingtool.com/ideal-...owder-measures

    I just missed getting a Stevens Pope Duplex Powder Measure by about 2 minutes a couple of years ago.

    https://www.reloadingtool.com/h-m-pope-powder-measure

    https://pbase.com/halp/image/38537067

    Some other ones I would like to find https://www.pbase.com/halp/schuetzen_measures
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 06-19-2022 at 09:08 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Just found and read this thread;

    A) It took me back a bit to my late good friend John in WV who had a Lyman duplex powder measure which was the ticket for the duplex loads he made up.

    B) I really miss another John, Mr. Kort. We had some great chats during his one-week camping stays at the Ridgway Rifle Club.

    The two Johns never had the opportunity to meet, but they were kindred spirits for sure.

    Noah

  10. #50
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    I use a load of home-made black powder and 3 grains of red dot under it burns clean and shoots accurate in my 44 mag red hawk and H&R single shot , can shoot a hundred rounds with no issues of fouling in the revolver.

  11. #51
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    I like to use duplex loads with wc 872 and 4198. I do not duplex with black powder.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLaROCHE View Post
    I don’t see the point. Why not just shoot smokeless, if you don’t want to deal with fouling. However, when I am shooting BP in my 45/70, I often shoot a smokeless round or two at the end and it makes cleaning a lot easier.
    When I was a kid, my pig rifle was a Winchester 92 carbine in .44-40. I used a Winchester reloading tool. This did not resize anything, but did crimp. The load was 15 gns Dupont #80 with 200 gn cast bullet. The load did not fill the case. Even with resizing (I did have a FLS die), the thin cases meant that bullets collapsing back into the case were a regular occurrence. The solution was to use Curtis and Harvey #4 black powder - fill the case up, compress with the bullet, and crimp. Fouling of rifle and cases was of course an issue.

    Duplex loads came next, using Sporting Ballistite powder. I think it was actually WWII surplus, hitherto used for rifle grenade launching blanks and possibly mortars. The published load for .44-40 was 9 gns. Loading by proportions, I used 2 gns Ballistite on top of the primer and 30 gns black on top, and still had a degree of compression, sufficient to prevent the bullets pushing in. That was a good load that shot well enough and made a BIG reduction in fouling.

    Mission accomplished.

    Edit: Oops, I see I had already posted some of this a couple of months ago - the point of revisiting was to answer the question of "why do it?".
    Last edited by Wilderness; 06-21-2022 at 07:33 AM.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    When I was a kid, my pig rifle was a Winchester 92 carbine in .44-40. I used a Winchester reloading tool. This did not resize anything, but did crimp. I also had a FLS die. Even with resizing, the thin cases meant that bullets collapsing back into the case were a regular occurrence. The solution was to use Curtis and Harvey #4 black powder - fill the case up, compress with the bullet, and crimp (information was pretty scant back then and most intergenerational). Fouling of rifle and cases was of course an issue.

    Duplex loads came next, using what could be obtained, which was Sporting Ballistite powder. I think it was actually WWII surplus, hitherto used for rifle grenade launching blanks and possibly mortars. The published load for .44-40 was 9 gns. Loading by proportions, I used 2 gns Ballistite on top of the primer and 30 gns black on top, and still had a degree of compression, sufficient to prevent the bullets pushing in. That was a good load that shot well enough and made a BIG reduction in fouling.

    Mission accomplished.
    Most Excellent Report!!!

  14. #54
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    John in PA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    Way back, Ideal made a powder thrower with two reservoirs, one for black and one for smokeless. Both throws of the handle produced something. I think it was intended to load smokeless with a priming charge of black.
    Yep. Ideal No. 6 Duplex Powder Measure. They work very well, both chambers are adjustable. Dropping the handle down drops the priming charge, raising the handle briskly drops the bulk charge.
    https://www.reloadingtool.com/ideal-...owder-measures
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  15. #55
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    Im putting 5grns of AR2219 under 60 grns of home rolled BP in a .45/70 case under a 405 grn cast.....
    its definately cleaner than straight BP and lots less recoil than straight smokeless...normally 45grns of AR2208 .

    in process of sorting rifle out properly and getting scope zeroed. thought I WAS DOING ok with open sights,untill missed two deer,then fitted scope and had roughly zeroed with smokeless load...tried my duplex load and all over the show....the only other thing Ive changed is source of cast projectiles...I must get out and try again,shooting small game with a big hunk of lead at minimal cost is just plain good fun. so far Ive managed to hit 8 wallabies and 3 of those have been fluked headshots..... did manage 2 with same round last time out!!!!! made me feel king of the world.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz View Post
    I use a load of home-made black powder and 3 grains of red dot under it burns clean and shoots accurate in my 44 mag red hawk and H&R single shot , can shoot a hundred rounds with no issues of fouling in the revolver.
    now this has me thinking...maybe I would be better off to switch out the 2219 for red dot in the 45/70.......hmmmm
    I only used the 2219 as couldnt really see another use for it (sort of OK in .223) but Ive got half pottles of both AS30N and AP50N which are red n green dot equivilents......

  17. #57
    It's great to hear these good reports!!

    I tested one load last month or so with the pressuretrace. I think it is certainly good enough to test again sometime but I only had time to test this one load.

    6.6gr Reloder 7 under 25gr of Goex FFFg Black Powder, 215 LRNFP, Accurate 43-214A, 1,207fps @ 7,621psi or close to 9,008cup. Was a pretty clean burn but I think either Reloder 7 needs to be increased or use a faster burning powder. Plenty of room pressure-wise for change.

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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savvy Jack View Post
    It's great to hear these good reports!!

    I tested one load last month or so with the pressuretrace. I think it is certainly good enough to test again sometime but I only had time to test this one load.

    6.6gr Reloder 7 under 25gr of Goex FFFg Black Powder, 215 LRNFP, Accurate 43-214A, 1,207fps @ 7,621psi or close to 9,008cup. Was a pretty clean burn but I think either Reloder 7 needs to be increased or use a faster burning powder. Plenty of room pressure-wise for change.

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    try 5 grains AR2205 (its 4227) should be able to get 30 grains of Goex in as well

  19. #59
    I'll give that a try sometime, I do have plenty of 4227

  20. #60
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    4227 and 10B101 (equivalent to blue dot) are my go-to duplex powders any more. Faster gives pressure spikes and slower doesn't do what you want it to do.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check