Duplex loads

[indian joe]

I don’t see the point. Why not just shoot smokeless, if you don’t want to deal with fouling. However, when I am shooting BP in my 45/70, I often shoot a smokeless round or two at the end and it makes cleaning a lot easier.

This I dont understand? cleaning after straight black is so easy I dont get how a smokeless round or two at the end would make a worthwhile difference?

[GregLaROCHE]

This I dont understand? cleaning after straight black is so easy I dont get how a smokeless round or two at the end would make a worthwhile difference?

Actually, shooting a 45/70 lever gun and shooting smokeless after BP, I don’t need to do a water wash. I use a cable, so I pull everything out the muzzle. I use a patch with a liberal amount of Ballistol, a dry patch and finally another with Ballistol. Haven’t had a problem in three years and I check the barrel often and it’s always shiny with a lite coat of Ballistol remaining. I do remove the lever and bolt from time to time to give it a thorough cleaning, but I would do that, if I were only shooting smokeless too.

[indian joe]

Actually, shooting a 45/70 lever gun and shooting smokeless after BP, I don’t need to do a water wash. I use a cable, so I pull everything out the muzzle. I use a patch with a liberal amount of Ballistol, a dry patch and finally another with Ballistol. Haven’t had a problem in three years and I check the barrel often and it’s always shiny with a lite coat of Ballistol remaining. I do remove the lever and bolt from time to time to give it a thorough cleaning, but I would do that, if I were only shooting smokeless too.

we are not doing it all that much different really
if we had a cleaning race you might beat me by a minute (might not either)
i use a flush bottle instead of the wet patch
and I use a rod with a bore guide, one pass with a patch or brush to release the crud- then flush - repeat two or maybe three times then patch it dry - wouldnt be caught dead using a pull through after the ruined 303 brit muzzles I seen from doing it (I reckon its impossible to use a bore snake / cable / pull through without getting some rifling contact at the muzzle) yeah some of us got funny ideas but I'm sticking with this one.
the whole thing is a breeze really, any improvement is gonna be very minor.

You asked why duplex a while back - the best reason - $$$'s - ingredients for blackpowder cost less than two bucks a pound, plus 7 grains of smokeless and a primer - If I retrieve my lead from practicing I can shoot that 45/70 lever gun for near the cost of a 38special - and I have a 335 grain cast boolit doing 1500FPS - turns a big gun into a fun gun................

[Savvy Jack]

Another fine example of "Cancel Culture"

Anyone ever hear of Lesmok? "Lesmok" was the result of a duplex load. Used in quite a few cartridges. The key is understanding why it was used and using the correct smokeless powder combination.

[Nobade]

Another fine example of "Cancel Culture"

Anyone ever hear of Lesmoke? "Lesmoke" was the result of a duplex load. Used in quite a few cartridges. The key is understanding why it was used and using the correct smokeless powder mixture.

I was under the impression Lesmoke was something similar to Blackhorn 209. A smokeless powder that could be used bulk loaded. There used to be DuPont bulk smokeless also, kind of the same idea.

[Savvy Jack]

I was under the impression Lesmoke was something similar to Blackhorn 209. A smokeless powder that could be used bulk loaded. There used to be DuPont bulk smokeless also, kind of the same idea.

Not quite!

I am not gonna let folks think I know a lot about it, because I don't. What I do know is that Peters started the process with Kings Semi-Smokeless. Dupont came up with their version of the duplex load called Lesmok.

John Kort came up with loads for several cartridges that used these powders sometime between 1911 and 1947. Among them was the 44-40.

Here is a conversation regarding such loadings;

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...7-duplex-loads

[John Boy]

John Kort, the Experimenter Personified... with more knowledge capable in conversation than many folks could read from a volume of books
Oh How I Miss Him ...

[TNsailorman]

I have used a duplex load in some of my black powder .43 Spanish loads because I seem to get better ignition and cleaner brass with them. I used 5 grains of 4759 over the primer and 65 grains of FF Goex powder on top of that. I am going to have to go to a different load in the future if I duplex because the 4759 is history around here. james

[sharps4590]

TN, I'm using almost the same load in a 43 Mauser. There's other smokeless powders we can use.

[TNsailorman]

I had a fellow shooter suggest Red Dot but I think that powder might be just a mite quick for a kick starter. I may have to do some experimenting this summer or just stay with Trail Boss which I have started using more and more. james

[indian joe]

Not quite!

I am not gonna let folks think I know a lot about it, because I don't. What I do know is that Peters started the process with Kings Semi-Smokeless. Dupont came up with their version of the duplex load called Lesmok.

John Kort came up with loads for several cartridges that used these powders sometime between 1911 and 1947. Among them was the 44-40.

Here is a conversation regarding such loadings;

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...7-duplex-loads

Bryan
I dont know what others are doing but mine is a two part load - not mixed - 4227 on the primer then fill with black - thats my understanding of a duplex load

mixing then loading would seem to me either foolish - if mixed first then metered out - how would you know really how much smokeless, given how different granular materials tend to segregate themselves out in containers? -

or If the powders were mixed charge by charge that would be a very tedious process (I dont have that much patience)

as a youngster in the 60's there were a few old blokes around that had used the kings and "Lesmok" and occasionally we would see old ammo loaded with it

I started handloading my 32/20 with "shotgun ballistite" - took a can into the local pharmacist and he measured a charge that we carried carefully home in a gel capsule so we could cut a scoop measure - the learning curve was steep in those days - I remember nobels revolver powder and some IMI ball powder that didnt last long in storage

eventually I got my Dad to bring me home some proper black powder when he made a trip to Sydney he flew home on a DC3 with 5 pounds of it in his briefcase - Imagine the result these days if you stepped on a plane with that in your carryon bag - likely spend the rest of your life lookin through the bars ........

If I knew then what I know now ----....................

[Savvy Jack]

I had a fellow shooter suggest Red Dot but I think that powder might be just a mite quick for a kick starter. I may have to do some experimenting this summer or just stay with Trail Boss which I have started using more and more. james

Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder and probably should not be used in a duplex load. I believe the idea is to keep the chamber pressures low which would require a slower burning rifle powder.

[Savvy Jack]

Bryan
I dont know what others are doing but mine is a two part load - not mixed - 4227 on the primer then fill with black - thats my understanding of a duplex load

mixing then loading would seem to me either foolish - if mixed first then metered out - how would you know really how much smokeless, given how different granular materials tend to segregate themselves out in containers? -

or If the powders were mixed charge by charge that would be a very tedious process (I dont have that much patience)

as a youngster in the 60's there were a few old blokes around that had used the kings and "Lesmok" and occasionally we would see old ammo loaded with it

I started handloading my 32/20 with "shotgun ballistite" - took a can into the local pharmacist and he measured a charge that we carried carefully home in a gel capsule so we could cut a scoop measure - the learning curve was steep in those days - I remember nobels revolver powder and some IMI ball powder that didnt last long in storage

eventually I got my Dad to bring me home some proper black powder when he made a trip to Sydney he flew home on a DC3 with 5 pounds of it in his briefcase - Imagine the result these days if you stepped on a plane with that in your carryon bag - likely spend the rest of your life lookin through the bars ........

If I knew then what I know now ----....................

Yes, poor choice of words and I will edit that part. The powders are not to be "mixed" but remain separated. Smokeless on the primer followed by black out to the bullet. The black powder needs to be compressed enough to not allow the powders to "mix" over time from movement, storage and vibration.

[Nobade]

The really fast pistol/shotgun powders are not good for this. The pressure rise is too fast. I use nothing faster than Blue Dot, and not slower than IMR4198. IMR4227 is about right, as is RE7. Recently I have been using 10B101 to good effect but that's not commonly available.

[GregLaROCHE]

we are not doing it all that much different really
if we had a cleaning race you might beat me by a minute (might not either)
i use a flush bottle instead of the wet patch
and I use a rod with a bore guide, one pass with a patch or brush to release the crud- then flush - repeat two or maybe three times then patch it dry - wouldnt be caught dead using a pull through after the ruined 303 brit muzzles I seen from doing it (I reckon its impossible to use a bore snake / cable / pull through without getting some rifling contact at the muzzle) yeah some of us got funny ideas but I'm sticking with this one.
the whole thing is a breeze really, any improvement is gonna be very minor.

You asked why duplex a while back - the best reason - $$$'s - ingredients for blackpowder cost less than two bucks a pound, plus 7 grains of smokeless and a primer - If I retrieve my lead from practicing I can shoot that 45/70 lever gun for near the cost of a 38special - and I have a 335 grain cast boolit doing 1500FPS - turns a big gun into a fun gun................

The cable I use is plastic coated and the threaded parts are brass. I can’t see how it could damage the muzzle. I like the idea of a squirt bottle from the receiver side. I never thought of doing that. You still have to push the patch from the muzzle end. Doesn’t that push anything into the receiver?

[sharps4590]

The really fast pistol/shotgun powders are not good for this. The pressure rise is too fast. I use nothing faster than Blue Dot, and not slower than IMR4198. IMR4227 is about right, as is RE7. Recently I have been using 10B101 to good effect but that's not commonly available.

I have heard mention and read of 2400 being used on many occasions but, have never tried anything other than SR-4759. I have a couple pounds of it which should last as long as I last.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, duplexing is not to be confused with mixing or "blending". I have some interesting information on the blending of smokeless and BP but have not tested any.

I imagine any extruded smokeless power in the burning range of 4227 - RL7 would work. The nice thing about 4759 is/was it's bulkiness as compared to similar burning rate powders. Also the, to me following Spence Wolf's method, is cleaner burning and using just enough smokeless to blow the charcoal fouling out of the barrel.

[Gray Fox]

I have about 3/4 lb. of IMR 7625, could that be used? GF

[fgd135]

King's Semi-Smokeless originated from their 1899 patent. DuPont, not to be left out for this powder market, developed Lesmok.
Neither was a "Duplexed" powder. Lesmok, which was 60% potassium nitrate ("guncotton"), 20% wood cellulose, 12% charcoal & 08% sulfur, was developed by DuPont in 1911 one of several semismokeless products in the industry containing a mixture of black and nitrocellulose powder. It was sold to Winchester and others primarily for .22 and .32 rimfire. Its advantage was that it was less corrosive than smokeless powders then in use as the bulkier load carried away more of the (mercuric) primer residue, and had somewhat less fouling than straight black powder in that the bore did not require cleaning after every shot. It was last sold by Winchester in 1947.
Mattern's 1926 book "Handloading Ammunition" has loadings and more information on Lesmok and King's Semi-Smokeless, and other now obsolete powders.

[Savvy Jack]

I will spare the quotations for this one........This should define the words Mixture, Blend etc.


Just a reminder to those reading this, duplex loading is beneficial in older rifles having pitted bores where with a straight b.p. charge, fouling will build up pretty quickly in the barrel recesses and accuracy will go downhill rather quickly. NOT JUST ANY SMOKELESS POWDER CAN BE USED!!!

by Jim Martin

Centerfire pistol-size cartridges loaded with "Lesmok" powder were first mentioned as available in W.R.A.Co.'s catalog No.77 (October 1911), and were last mentioned as available in No.80 (1916). During those years, centerfire pistol-size cartridges were simultaneously catalogued loaded with Black Powder, "Lesmok" Powder, and Smokeless Powder.

It was in 1911 that rimfire cartridges were also first available. After 1916 the rimfires continued to be available, but only in .22 caliber. I don't have all the catalogs after 1920, but the 1932 edition still carries "Lesmok" .22 Long Rifle cartridges, while 1938 is silent.

For those who do not know, "Lesmok" was a blend of Smokeless and Black Powder intended to give less fouling than B.P., while maintaining somewhat lower pressures at standard velocities compared to Smokeless. Available cartridges were priced the same as those loaded with B.P.

Duplex Loading the .44-40
by Shasta » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:12 pm

I am considering testing .44-40 caliber duplex loads of Fg, FFg, FFFg using a 10% IMR 4759 priming charge in my 1873 rifles, the purpose being to reduce black powder fouling during 15 shot silhouette relays. One rifle is an original Winchester from 1880, the other a Uberti reproduction.

My attempts at internet searching the subject seem to veer off to the .45-70 caliber, which I have duplexed in the past with very good results. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, as it were, so was wondering if anyone here on the Leverguns forum, (I'm especially thinking of the esteemed and highly experienced .44-40 expert Mr. John Kort) might have already done this and could share their experiences?

SHASTA

Re: Duplex Loading the .44-40
by w30wcf » Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:12 am

Shasta,

While I partially agree with the pards, I have run some duplex cartridges through my original '73 (1882) with no issues.

That was about 10 years ago and my reason for doing so was that the barrel which is far from perfect, would foul quickly and accuracy would go out of the window in short order.

Lyman had published some data including pressure in their Cast Bullet Handbook on duplex loads in the 45-70. Interestingly with a 322 gr bullet, the pressure between 70 / of Goex FFG and a 63 Goex FFG / 7 grs 4759 was pretty much identical (14,700 vs 14,900). With a 400 gr bullet the same loads produced 16,400 & 18,700 respectively.

Based on that....since the 44-40 has a lighter bullet and charge my feeling that a duplex of 4/4759 under 30 / Goex FFG Should be plenty safe. I decided on the lesser charge of 30 grs instead of 36 grs because I reasoned that since 16 grs of 4759 = the velocity of 40 grs of FFG then 1 gr. of 4759 was ballistically = to 2.5 grs of b.p. Therefore, 4 grs of 4759 was = to 10 grs of black. Thus 40-10= 30 grs b.p. + 4 grs. 4759.

Anyway, it worked well and I could shoot many rounds without the lest than perfect barrel fouling out.

HOWEVER, If I were to do it today in my vintage '73, I would use RL7 instead of 4759. The reason being is that a capacity load of RL7 has been tested by Hercules Powder (now Alliant) in the .44-40 and generated pressures well within the SAAMI MAP for the .44-40 and that was with a heavier 240 gr bullet. So....technically one could use any amount of RL7 and fill the rest of the capacity with b.p. and not exceed b.p. pressures.

I have since found that better b.p.'s like Swiss and lately Olde Enysford work much better than Goex to keep things running well for many rounds (100+ using the standard 2 groove bullet) in a smooth barrel. In the vintage '73 with the less than perfect barrel, the additional lube of the Accurate 43-215C in combination with the less fouling properties of those two powders will allow that rifle to shoot accurately for many rounds.

w30wcf

Re: Duplex Loading the .44-40
by Shasta » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:17 am

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen, you've given me plenty to think about.

Like Mr. Kort, one of my main reasons for pursuing a duplex load is the rather rough bore on my original 1873. It is a 28" barrel that fouls very quickly, even when using my deep grooved Accurate bullets (black powder lube, of course). It requires a great deal of scrubbing to get it clean after firing just fifteen or twenty rounds. It shoots very well with a charge of Reloader 7, but I would enjoy using black powder if I could just make it a little less troublesome.

My experience duplexing a Sharps .45-70 some years ago was extremely positive. The barrel stayed clean much longer, and the brass was much easier to clean also. I did not keep it up for long because duplex loads were not allowed for BPCR silhouette competition. There is no such restriction for the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette disciplines, and so it has been on my mind lately.

I think I will start by trying some of the newer and supposedly better black powders before attempting to duplex.

SHASTA

Re: Duplex Loading the .44-40
by w30wcf » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:55 am

Shasta wrote:

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen, you've given me plenty to think about.

Like Mr. Kort, one of my main reasons for pursuing a duplex load is the rather rough bore on my original 1873. It is a 28" barrel that fouls very quickly, even when using my deep grooved Accurate bullets (black powder lube, of course). It requires a great deal of scrubbing to get it clean after firing just fifteen or twenty rounds. It shoots very well with a charge of Reloader 7, but I would enjoy using black powder if I could just make it a little less troublesome.

My experience duplexing a Sharps .45-70 some years ago was extremely positive. The barrel stayed clean much longer, and the brass was much easier to clean also. I did not keep it up for long because duplex loads were not allowed for BPCR silhouette competition. There is no such restriction for the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette disciplines, and so it has been on my mind lately.

I think I will start by trying some of the newer and supposedly better black powders before attempting to duplex.

SHASTA

Howdy Shasta,

I am sure that if you try Swiss or Olde Enysford you will definitely see a difference as compared to standard Goex.

In my '73 with it's somewhat rough barrel using the standard 2 lube groove bullet (427098) lubed with SPG ...

Goex FFG - group started opening up by the 7th shot and by the 10th shot the bullets were starting to partially keyhole

Swiss FFG - good accuracy maintained for about 18 shots then the group started to open up

Bullet: Accurate 43-215C

Swiss FFG - good accuracy maintained for 30 rounds (most tried at 1 time)

By comparison in the smooth barrel on my Marlin Cowboy 44-40 .....

427098 / Goex FFG - groups start to open after a dozen rounds

43-215C / Goex FFG - accuracy maintained for many many rounds (50+)

427098 / Swiss FFG - accuracy maintained for many many rounds (50+)

recent testing with Olde Enysford gave results similar to Swiss.

w30wcf

Re: Duplex Loading the .44-40
by Shasta » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:40 am

w30wcf wrote:

Shasta,

I was wondering if you ever tried a duplex loading and if so, what the results were.

w30wcf


John,

Thanks for asking, and yes, I did do some duplex load testing shortly after posting this thread about a year ago. Despite all the dire warnings of some, I and both my rifles survived. I did not report on my activities as I got the feeling that most here did not think it wise to be messing with duplexing.

The loads I tested in both rifles consisted of an approximately 210 gr. Accurate Molds 433205C bullet over 4.0 grains of Reloder 7 topped by 30.0 grains by weight of some old G.O.I. FFg with a single milk carton wad under the bullet. Gearhart Owens Industries (GOI) was a predecessor of Goex that went out of business back in the early eighties, but I have a whole keg of it that I need to use up.

I shoot my five shot groups at 50 yards because that works well with my sheet paper size targets. Much further and the front bead covers the entire paper. Velocities measured over my Ohler 35P chronograph were not much different than straight black, with my original Winchester 28" averaging 1,203 fps and the Navy Arms replica 24" averaging 1,198 fps.

I tried both smokeless lube (White Label BAC) and my homemade Paul Matthews formula black power lube (beeswax, Neatsfoot Oil, Neutrogena Facial Soap). The smokeless lube caused hard fouling, while the BP lube kept fouling moist and soft. I compared Federal Large Pistol Magnum and Standard primers. The standard seemed to do the best. All the duplex loads tended to leave some granules of smokeless powder residue in the bore, but the black powder fouling was definitely much less, and for some reason had a lighter color.

Most groups were nothing to brag on, running upwards of 3 inches, but I did get several in the range of one and a half to two inches, which was pretty good for my eyes and iron sights. (I have since had cataract surgery and can see better now). Both rifles performed nearly identically.

I really should do some more work on this, but many other interests intervene. I also discovered that Olde Eynsford black powder burns moist with much less fouling than regular Goex in the old Winchester, and I need to test that some more too. Might save the trouble of duplexing.

Shasta,

Thank you for the report. Glad to see that you had some success. Just a reminder to those reading this, duplex loading is beneficial in older rifles having pitted bores where with a straight b.p. charge, fouling will build up pretty quickly in the barrel recesses and accuracy will go downhill rather quickly. NOT JUST ANY SMOKELESS POWDER CAN BE USED!!!

One thing that most folks don't realize is that the early Semi-Smokeless powder (King's) contained 20% of smokeless in its formulation which also included the other components of b.p. It was said that it produced velocities of up to 10% greater than straight b.p. and the pressures had been recorded as being the same as b.p. It was for use in all b.p. rifles / cartridges and was to be loaded just like b.p.

I have had the opportunity to test some vintage PETERS Semi-Smokeless 44-40 cartridges and they indeed produced velocities of 1,430 f.p.s. avg. which is almost spot on to the 10% improvement claim. Lesmok was the DuPont version of Semi-Smokeless powder.

That being said, late last year I tested up to 20% by weight of RL7 under the b.p. charge. At this point I would like to remind the reader that a capacity load of RL-7 was tested by Hercules under a heavier 240 gr bullet and it produced pressures that were 10% under SAMMI MAP for the .44-40. That means that any amount of RL-7 under a b.p. charge is plenty safe. DO NOT SUSTITUTE ANY OTHER POWDER!!

A combination of 20% RL-7 and Goex FFG produced 1,316 f.p.s. average in a 24" barrel. Accuracy was very good.


Shasta,

I can't recall what the groove diameters of your rifles are and the diameter of the bullet you are using and the alloy(?).

I am thinking that a .06" thick poly disc under the bullet just might improve accuracy since it would act as a gas check,

helping keep the gas behind the bullet as it transverses the bore.

I recently underwent cataract surgery as well. Much improvement as you said with being able to see the sights much better!

Sadly, I read that Paul Matthews had passed on in 2015.

w30wcf

Reloder 7 is one of my favorite powders. My standard smokeless .44-40 load uses 25.0 grains Reloder 7 with a large pistol primer and the 210 grain Accurate 433205C bullet. Velocity is right at 1,405 fps.

For those who may be interested in reading or re-reading more about my experiences loading for and shooting my 1880 vintage Winchester, here is a link to an old thread from 2012:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=40797

Shasta

Read all the replies here: https://www.levergunscommunity.org/v...hp?f=1&t=62144