45-70 Sharps Need BP starting load suggestions please.

[lar45]

Hi everybody.
I'm looking for a starting point for loading my 45-70 Taylor's Sharps with 32" barrel.
In the past I've used the Lyman 535gn bullet with good success, but my mold was destroyed in our shop fire and the only one I have on hand that looks useable is the Lyman 457193BV.
I cast a bunch out of mostly pure lead, with just a little Mono-type added for the tin, They dropped at .458" and 408gn
Will the 457193BV hold enough lube for black powder? Or is is more of a smokeless bullet?
Seated to just engage the lands is 2.710"
I have new Win cases, and a wide range of primers.
For powder, I have on hand some Goex FFg, and Swiss 3 F (no 2). I thought I had some 1 1/2F Swiss, but can't find it.
I have a 24" drop tube
RCBS dies

Do I just need to drop enough powder to get 1/8" compression, seat a bullet and go with that?
Also, I've heard to go with regular pistol primers for a more gentle ignition, and also Fed 215s to get a cleaner burn...

I'm on a quest for a new lube to replace our BPCR Supreme. I only have enough was left to make maybe 15#, then that Navy surplus beeswax will be no more unless someone has some sitting on a shelf that they would part with, hint hint...
Anyway, our BP-01 is a great BP lube, but it has some Alox in it. Some shooters won't try it because of the Alox, so I'm starting on a new Alox free BP Lube.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

[lar45]

Well, I got started.
I took a full case of Goex FFg, dropped it through the 24" tube into a new Win case with Win LP primer.
This was about 78gn of powder and gave about 3/16" of compression. This turned out to be too much as the bullets pushed out of the case a little bit.
Velocity was around 1387fps.
I only shot at 25 yds so far because I just put a peep sight on and needed to get it on the paper. After adjusting, the last 4 rounds all went in the same hole. I'll load lots more and shoot from the bench tomorrow maybe.

What's a thread without pics?
Here's the rifle.




This is the first test of pan lubing with the new lube. I poured the lube to cover the lube grooves, came back an hour later and pushed out the bullets. Worked great.


I only fired 8 rounds tonight getting sighted in.
Clean up went better than expected with the bulk of the fouling coming out with only 2 patches.
Here's 4 patches.


I think I need to get some 45 cal wads and reduce the powder charge some.

[Castaway]

If you’re compressing with your bullet, don’t. Use a compression die or a searing die with a piece of dowel rod or other method to get the powder to the desired depth.

[JKR]

Sounds like you’re on your way.
Sounds like a lot of compression to me, but if that’s what the rifle likes, that’s what it likes. As Castaway mentioned, use a compression die.

I used to shoot that bullet a lot before getting into paper patch. It’s maybe a little light on lube but a great hunting bullet. I gave the mold to a friend who used that bullet to take a cow moose with one shot at a measured 185 yards.
My load with it was 67 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 with a .060” wad. It shot very nicely at 200 yards from my Shiloh rifle.
Have fun!
JKR

[country gent]

An easy way to "cheat" compressing powder:
Make a dummy bullet to match what your loading.
You want the bullet roughly .010 smaller in dia than what your loading and as close to profile as possible.
If you have a lathe, brass aluminum or steel will work. simple turn the bullet up
If your using a steel mould a casting from zinc would work but would need the body cut down the .010.
If possible leave the dummy long .015-.030 to "fit"
In use when the dummy is right You use your seater die set as is. dump powder charge add wads with dummy bullet and compress. TH
ken the real bullet and seat. If you crimp you will need a spacer and dummy to match the added length

[lar45]

Thanks for the suggestions.
Much appreciated.

[Castaway]

Something else comes to mind. Anneal your brass, then don’t size after shooting. Thumb seat to a depth your bullet is bumping the rifling. If hunting, put a slight crimp on the bullet so the cartridge so it can be extracted without leaving the bullet in the barrel. If target shooting, I don’t crimp at all

[BLAHUT]

I USE A LARGE MAG PRIMER ( ANY BUT FED OR CCI THEY GIVE 100 FPs more just by themselves ) UNDER 42 GRs BLACKHORN 209 DEPENDING ON LOT NUMBER WITH A 525 GR PURE LEAD BULLET SIZED TO .460 I MAKE MY OWN LUBE ONE CARD WAD OVER POWER WITH A PLASTIC WAD OVER THAT - A CLEANER LOAD SILGHT COMPERSSION NO CRIMP JUST AT 1200 FPS BULLET JUST TOUCHES RIFLING IN ROLLING BLOCK BRASS UNSIZED BUT BELLED TO RECIEVE BULLET INDEXED TO CHAMBER WILL HOLD X RING 8 OUT OF 10 SHOTS AT 1000yds IF I DO MY PART

[lar45]

I shot 15 rounds of 70gn Goex FFg with the Lyman 405, waited a day and then shot another 15 rounds to see how the fouling was.
The fouling was soft and pushed out very easily with 3 patches.


I ordered some 45 cal wads from Midway and will try some of those under the bullet next.

[Milky Duck]

I compress powder down into the 45/70 case with another smaller case...the 7.62x39mm or suchlike.... also find putting it in 25 grns at a time helps a lot... the other way Ive done it is to poke it through powder funnel with small plastic rod..in my case a teaspoon from air New Zealand...the handle is perfect size. by poking it down and poking around the edges it settles it down into case very well,I can get 65grns of home rolled black powder that isnt compressed at all in making so is bulky compared to store bought.

[tmanbuckhunter]

78grs is quite a bit. Most people with greasers are in that 60-67gr territory.

[BLAHUT]

GET A .45 CAL PUNCH AND CUT YOUR OWN YOU CAN MAKE THEM ANY THICKNESS YOU MAY NEED I HAVE CUT CORK 1/8" THICK, MILK CARTEN, CARD STOCK, I PUT A PLASTIC CUT WAD UNDER THE BULLET BASE ON TOP OF CARD WAD, WORKS LIKE A CLEANER ROUND. CARD WAD HOLDS POWDER DOWN TO PRIMER. 525 gr PURE LEAD. 42 grs OF BLACKHORN209 ON TOP OF A LARGE RIFLE MAG PRIMER. 1200fps. WITH LIGHT COMPRESSION. FED OR CCI GIVES ME 100 fps MORE WITH ONLY CHANGING THE PRIMER. ACCURATE OUT TO 1000yds.

[indian joe]

I compress powder down into the 45/70 case with another smaller case...the 7.62x39mm or suchlike.... also find putting it in 25 grns at a time helps a lot... the other way Ive done it is to poke it through powder funnel with small plastic rod..in my case a teaspoon from air New Zealand...the handle is perfect size. by poking it down and poking around the edges it settles it down into case very well,I can get 65grns of home rolled black powder that isnt compressed at all in making so is bulky compared to store bought.

Duck what you find is because the home rolled didnt get as compressed in the making process it will take a lot more compression in loading so ends up pretty much at the same place as commercial but more work in loading it to get there

[FrankJD]

I shot 15 rounds of 70gn Goex FFg with the Lyman 405, waited a day and then shot another 15 rounds to see how the fouling was.
The fouling was soft and pushed out very easily with 3 patches.


I ordered some 45 cal wads from Midway and will try some of those under the bullet next.

Looks like yer having some good fun, cool!

As others have mentioned, best to punch out yer own wads and then you can be more selective in wad material (i.e. - .060" LDPE, milk carton, tablet, newsprint, etc) and also have the ability to stack wads of the same or different materials.

Lotsa good choices for greaser lubes and I used Gato Feo home brew - 1 weight canning wax (Gulf), 1 weight mutton tallow (DGW), 1/2 weight beeswax.

Compress the powder with a wad over the charge, not directly with a bullet seating on the powder. You can use a marked 7/16" dowel for a .45 case, but using a press mounted compression die will be more consistent.

Greasers mean setting cartridge OAL and dealing with bbl leading. Back in the later half of the 19th century, most rifles were being loaded with paper patched bullet cartridges (PPB). Going the black powder PPB way will mean building PPB bore rider cartridges and thus no hard and fast OAL. PPBs are jacketed bullets (with no grease grooves, these bullets are called slicks), and thus no bbl leading. Fire formed brass is cleaned, annealed, primed, drop fill charged, wad added and wad/powder compressed, and a PPB is pushed into the loaded case. The only need for a press might be for wad/powder compression and/or adding a Very Slight taper crimp to the case mouth to keep the PPB from falling out (yet in the case the PPB can be turned, removed, placed back into the case).