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Thread: Better 2 Ball shotgun ??? 870/500/590A1

  1. #21
    Boolit Master

    Hogtamer's Avatar
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    Get your hands on an older Wingmaster 870.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  2. #22
    Boolit Master

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    Hey BT, an old marine buddy of mine of the Nam era told me, “an 870 with 00s is the best 40 meter warfare weapon ever made.” I’d love to see you two have that argument!!! He can still shoot too! BTW, I don’t think I’ve ever told you but I appreciate your service to our country.
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  3. #23
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogtamer View Post
    Hey BT, an old marine buddy of mine of the Nam era told me, “an 870 with 00s is the best 40 meter warfare weapon ever made.” I’d love to see you two have that argument!!! He can still shoot too! BTW, I don’t think I’ve ever told you but I appreciate your service to our country.
    I don’t disagree. The old 870’s are golden. Anything made since the 1990’s is suspect.

    And thank you, brother. I’d do it all over again.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    I just stumbled into a '86 made 870 Police Magnum so it will be my hog gun if the hunt works. 18" barrel 3" magnum, rifle sights, carried alot but shot very little. Getting the right components to load the double round ball has been hard. I have .620" balls, over powder wad but finding new hulls is hard.

  5. #25
    Boolit Man
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    The double will be fastest for 2 shots.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master

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    "The double will be fastest for 2 shots."

    My thought exactly!

    Double rifles were and are carried for large dangerous game for that reason... for normal "charging animal" defense the distances are usually close so not much time to react. A double has two loaded chambers and two trigger pulls... nothing to operate or think about except the safety or cocking hammers then Bang! Bang! Most likely if you needed a third Bang! you wouldn't have time anyway.

    Having said that I bought a used Mossberg Slugster for my bear defense gun but am still leaning towards a double barrel 12 ga. for bear defense and preferably a side by just because I like side by's but an over/under would be just as effective.

    Different strokes.

    Longbow

  7. #27
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    Kent: You know that little book I sent you? If you go to the Test near the back you will see the times that you are expected to be able to complete the tasks in. I can do every one everytime with a pump gun except the 4 targets in 2.7 seconds. I'm usually there right at 3.0 seconds. This took some practice but it is doable.

    The key to all of it is "Riding the Recoil". If you have taken your trigger group out of your M500 you have seen that the only thing actually holding the action in battery is the little Slide Release Lever. Obvious the Locking Lug in the bolt mating to the cutout in the barrel shroud is what takes the recoil, but as soon as the hammer drops that lever is pushed down and the slide is free to move.

    By having a small amount of rearward pressure on the fore end, as soon as the shot breaks the slide starts to move backwards and the recoil assists it in moving all the way to the back stop, then you close it on a new round. This is called "Riding the Recoil."

    After a few hundred iterations this becomes second nature. This is also a learned function, and I have learned it over the last 2 years. I wasn't born knowing how to do this !!!

    I shot skeet with my M37 a couple of years ago and after firing the first shot I just watched the second bird fly by and couldn't do much about it because I hadn't racked the slide. This was frustrating, because at the time, I really didn't know how to run a pump gun.

    After several Shotgun Classes to Front Sight, I do know how to run a pump gun, and guess what? I had no problems with doubles on the Skeet field last week with the M37. In fact I shot 15/25 on the first round and 20/25 on the second. This is after no Skeet for 2 years ! after I get my Leads and Proper Sight Pictures back in place, I'll be in the low 20's every round. the gun is a joy to shoot.

    I will tell you that this is now a rote function with me and I don't even think about it. It just happens and if Mr. Bear was charging, he would get more than one round of 00 in his face in less than 2 seconds. Rifle sights do help.

    As far as Mossbergs Versus 870's the relevant point has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. Some 870's were made better than others. All the M500's appear to be pretty much the same.

    However the M500 platform has several advantages over the 870 in a Combat Shotgun.

    The M500 is easier to single load thru the Ejection Port, because it is bigger than the 870 Port. Also the 870 has a bump on the lifter that gets in the way if the slide is moved forward even a small amount. The lifter pops up and blocks the port and you can't get anything past it. I am told that the reason for this is if you are laying on your side under a car and you rack the gun that little bump on the lifter prevents the new round from dropping out on the ground. The M500 will dump the round, but then how often do you lay on your side under a car?

    Hans Vang, who is THE Police 870 guru eliminates that bump on the lifter and that fixes that problem.

    You say, so what? Why does this matter? Well, if you run the gun dry you can Port Load it and keep returning fire until you get to cover and are able to reload the magazine. Much better than standing out in the open and being shot at. This is kind of a necessary skill to have in a time of need, and the M500 platform just makes it easier to accomplish.

    The M500 has Dual Extractors which grab the rim of the case better than a single one does, IE: more reliable extraction. If it does leave the round it is more likely to pick it up the second time. Also if the round sticks in the chamber the dual extractors are better at removing the offending round when you butt stroke the gun.

    I have watched both brands in action in the various classes I've been to (6 now) and the Mossbergs just run better. As far as Combat Shotguns go they are superior to everything else out there, and that is probably why the US Military buys them now.

    One other thing that has benefitted my Shotgunning has been having my M500 Barrels Vang Comped. This consists of lengthening the Forcing Cone to 3", Back Boring the barrel to .745 and then the last 2" tapers back down to .730, adn then the 62 holes for porting that reduce Muzzle Rise.. Both my guns pattern 00 buck into 7" at 25 yards. This makes Buckshot a viable round out to 50 yards which could come in handy. the System works and that's all I can say about it. Well worth the $ if you are serious about your Combat Shotgun.

    Rifle Sights? Yes Rifle Sights on a Combat Shotgun are a must. You are mostly using Buckshot or Slugs. It is a .73 Caliber Rifle and you need Rifle Sights to aim it properly.

    One other thing that has made a remarkable difference to my guns and recoil management, is the Magpul Furniture. It is very well designed and enhances the handling of the guns dramatically. It also makes doing things like Port Loading much faster.

    Needless to say I concur with Leon about Mossbergs !!!

    Randy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100464676.JPG   100464594.JPG   100465117.JPG  
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 05-08-2021 at 04:06 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  8. #28
    Boolit Master Blood Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    Kent: You know that little book I sent you? If you go to the Test near the back you will see the times that you are expected to be able to complete the tasks in. I can do every one everytime with a pump gun except the 4 targets in 2.7 seconds. I'm usually there right at 3.0 seconds. This took some practice but it is doable.

    The key to all of it is "Riding the Recoil". If you have taken your trigger group out of your M500 you have seen that the only thing actually holding the action in battery is the little Slide Release Lever. Obvious the Locking Lug in the bolt mating to the cutout in the barrel shroud is what takes the recoil, but as soon as the hammer drops that lever is pushed down and the slide is free to move.

    By having a small amount of rearward pressure on the fore end, as soon as the shot breaks the slide starts to move backwards and the recoil assists it in moving all the way to the back stop, then you close it on a new round. This is called "Riding the Recoil."

    After a few hundred iterations this becomes second nature. This is also a learned function, and I have learned it over the last 2 years. I wasn't born knowing how to do this !!!

    I shot skeet with my M37 a couple of years ago and after firing the first shot I just watched the second bird fly by and couldn't do much about it because I hadn't racked the slide. This was frustrating, because at the time, I really didn't know how to run a pump gun.

    After several Shotgun Classes to Front Sight, I do know how to run a pump gun, and guess what? I had no problems with doubles on the Skeet field last week with the M37. In fact I shot 15/25 on the first round and 20/25 on the second. This is after no Skeet for 2 years ! after I get my Leads and Proper Sight Pictures back in place, I'll be in the low 20's every round. the gun is a joy to shoot.

    I will tell you that this is now a rote function with me and I don't even think about it. It just happens and if Mr. Bear was charging, he would get more than one round of 00 in his face in less than 2 seconds. Rifle sights do help.

    As far as Mossbergs Versus 870's the relevant point has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. Some 870's were made better than others. All the M500's appear to be pretty much the same.

    However the M500 platform has several advantages over the 870 in a Combat Shotgun.

    The M500 is easier to single load thru the Ejection Port, because it is bigger than the 870 Port. Also the 870 has a bump on the lifter that gets in the way if the slide is moved forward even a small amount. The lifter pops up and blocks the port and you can't get anything past it. I am told that the reason for this is if you are laying on your side under a car and you rack the gun that little bump on the lifter prevents the new round from dropping out on the ground. The M500 will dump the round, but then how often do you lay on your side under a car?

    Hans Vang, who is THE Police 870 guru eliminates that bump on the lifter and that fixes that problem.

    You say, so what? Why does this matter? Well, if you run the gun dry you can Port Load it and keep returning fire until you get to cover and are able to reload the magazine. Much better than standing out in the open and being shot at. This is kind of a necessary skill to have in a time of need, and the M500 platform just makes it easier to accomplish.

    The M500 has Dual Extractors which grab the rim of the case better than a single one does, IE: more reliable extraction. If it does leave the round it is more likely to pick it up the second time. Also if the round sticks in the chamber the dual extractors are better at removing the offending round when you butt stroke the gun.

    I have watched both brands in action in the various classes I've been to (6 now) and the Mossbergs just run better. As far as Combat Shotguns go they are superior to everything else out there, and that is probably why the US Military buys them now.

    One other thing that has benefitted my Shotgunning has been having my M500 Barrels Vang Comped. This consists of lengthening the Forcing Cone to 3", Back Boring the barrel to .745 and then the last 2" tapers back down to .730, adn then the 62 holes for porting that reduce Muzzle Rise.. Both my guns pattern 00 buck into 7" at 25 yards. This makes Buckshot a viable round out to 50 yards which could come in handy. the System works and that's all I can say about it. Well worth the $ if you are serious about your Combat Shotgun.

    Rifle Sights? Yes Rifle Sights on a Combat Shotgun are a must. You are mostly using Buckshot or Slugs. It is a .73 Caliber Rifle and you need Rifle Sights to aim it properly.

    One other thing that has made a remarkable difference to my guns and recoil management, is the Magpul Furniture. It is very well designed and enhances the handling of the guns dramatically. It also makes doing things like Port Loading much faster.

    Needless to say I concur with Leon about Mossbergs !!!

    Randy
    Man, that’s a sweet ride.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master

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    No argument Randy. I find that my Mossberg is very smooth and operates very easily. I think I mentioned that I was shooting it off my becn top cross stick rest I made when I first got it and it was "auto reloading"! It took me a few shots to realize that the recoil was rocking me backwards and on the rebound the slide was being operated and chambering another round! The action is that smooth.

    I also find it pretty much impossible to short stroke. My only other pump gun is my Browning BPS and I have to think about operating it and consciously pull back hard on the slide or I will eject the spent round then close the action without feeding a fresh round into the chamber... it takes effort and a seemingly long pull on the slide... to me anyway. A short stroke would be a bad thing in any defense situation needless to say!

    Not sure if other pump guns have that same issue as with my BPS... Ithaca pumps maybe since they are also bottom eject? I'll have to check my son's 870 as I can't say I have noticed anything with that. However, I can say the Mossberg 500 is slick and easy to operate. I am glad I listened to you!

    I am embarrassed to say that have only scanned through the book you sent and read part in detail but not gone through the exercises. I should have been doing that during COVID restrictions but wound up doing a bunch of other things and haven't had the guns out in way too long. I will get back to that shortly and do the exercises.

    My point on the double is simply that they are simple and reliable and nothing to operate except a safety and trigger... no pump, no chance of jamming, no chance of short stroking, less parts for anything to break, jam or malfunction in any way. Push the safety off and you have two fast shots.

    As you have noted before, most people (myself included) probably do not and cannot operate a defensive shotgun, or other firearm, efficiently and dependably under stress so the simpler everything is the better in my opinion.

    You are right in that practice and muscle memory are the keys to being able to do what you can do in operating your pump gun fast and accurately. Most of us are not so good! Many might think so but I am betting with the training and practice you have had you would beat most of them (me too) every time. Not trying to butter you up, just stating what I think is true.

    Personally I think if a bear was charging and within 50 yards I would have a hard time getting off more than two rounds in a pump gun. A charging bear can cover 50 yards in 3 seconds. On a good day you might get 4 shots off if you were already prepared for the charge.

    Just my thoughts.

    Longbow

  10. #30
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    Kent: Just study the book, and do some of the exercises. It isn't that hard and just requires some practice.

    The way you hold the shell in your hand for loading is a key point. Learn that by keeping a round with you in your pocket and everytime you're standing around idle play with the shell. Pretty soon it will be second nature and you'll always grab a shell like that automatically.

    Most all of the Manual of Arms techniques revolve around Economy of Motion.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    By having a small amount of rearward pressure on the fore end, as soon as the shot breaks the slide starts to move backwards and the recoil assists it in moving all the way to the back stop, then you close it on a new round. This is called "Riding the Recoil."
    This feature is a MUST on a pumpgun! Since we're only allowed two shells in a shotgun over here, pumps are not very common - perhaps one for every ten semi-autos (which, again, is one for every twenty doubles). Still, I have owned a handful and one them was an old Stevens if I recall correctly. If you fired the gun with any rearward pull on the forend, the gun would not cycle. You had to deliberately push forward with your left hand for the slide to unlock. I got rid of the gun fast!

    Just to brag: I've shot several 25 straights in international skeet using a Remington 870. Plenty of time to cycle while going after that second bird.
    Cap'n Morgan

  12. #32
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    Capt: The thing that happens is people tend to "Follow Thru" after firing the first round and just watch the second bird fly by, After all my Training I don't do that any more.

    And,,, that 1940 Ithaca is the slickest running pump gun I have ever touched. Made in 1940 and well broken in. Also nicely Refurbished and Reblued by Ithaca a couple of years ago. A friend did the wood , which I had since 1976 but never got around to, It was bought from Fajen who is now out of business. It was a full tight pistol grip and I wanted English Style so it got cut down to the new style.

    Randy
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 100464614.JPG   100464611.JPG   100464615.JPG   IMG_1996.JPG   100464609.JPG  

    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  13. #33
    Boolit Master Jedman's Avatar
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    I really like shooting large lead balls out of shotguns. I have shot large hogs with 12, 18, and 24 ga. shotguns with near bore size single balls and one hog with a 410 with a 3 ball .400 dia. load.
    I personally would use which ever shotgun you own that is the most accurate, handy and suits the hunting style the best. I have many SXS and O/U shotguns and with a 2 ball load like you were mentioning would be my choice.

    Jedman

  14. #34
    Boolit Man
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    Recoil matters. I went Beretta 391 and 390....they never jam...ever. I shoot some really stout buckshot loads, coyotes, hogs, and deer.

    Make mine, Gas operated...they hurt a lot less.

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by ackleyman View Post
    Recoil matters. I went Beretta 391 and 390....they never jam...ever. I shoot some really stout buckshot loads, coyotes, hogs, and deer.

    Make mine, Gas operated...they hurt a lot less.
    I hope they are better than the 302. I don't think I ever saw a more maintenance intensive shotgun. You practically had to clean the action every time you shot it if you wanted it to be reliable.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check