Uberti/USFA single action 45's top end?

[ranchman]

Points all taken.. Larry & Outpost alike.

I hadn't considered the old balloon head brass likely playing its part in that old '58 cast manual that says 7.5grains unique. That point makes good sense now that you mention it. I believe I will make a "consideration" note inside that manual of mine for future... wherever & for whoever ends up with it after me down the road.

I'll work to 6.5 once I get going on this myself, see what the chrony says and keep that number in mind for tops far as the auto-rim load will go.

And to Outpost specifically.. those rockwell numbers are interesting to note too. I have had a few measured of my own, Colt single actions, and they've run anything from 14 to 28 themselves ... the raw steel below case their hardening. Hardened, I had a privately operating metal-guy claim his own three-time sophisticated set of heat treat brought one particular frame to 38, but I don't know whether that was surface measured after casing, or if it was an alteration to the actual metal composition and he meant the steel for a considerable depth below. He was an unusual kind of genius, the kind that are so smart they're hard to talk to.. if you know what I mean. Odd duck to say the least. I didn't want to throw the lot of what he said out the opposite ear after he told me, because Dick Casull is said to have done similar in the 50's. So who knows. Makes for good conversation. These rockwell numbers and steel datas aren't widely discussed, so some guys following this thread may find that all of value too.

[ddixie884]

Points all taken.. Larry & Outpost alike.

I hadn't considered the old balloon head brass likely playing its part in that old '58 cast manual that says 7.5grains unique. That point makes good sense now that you mention it. I believe I will make a "consideration" note inside that manual of mine for future... wherever & for whoever ends up with it after me down the road.

I'll work to 6.5 once I get going on this myself, see what the chrony says and keep that number in mind for tops far as the auto-rim load will go.

And to Outpost specifically.. those rockwell numbers are interesting to note too. I have had a few measured of my own, Colt single actions, and they've run anything from 14 to 28 themselves ... the raw steel below case their hardening. Hardened, I had a privately operating metal-guy claim his own three-time sophisticated set of heat treat brought one particular frame to 38, but I don't know whether that was surface measured after casing, or if it was an alteration to the actual metal composition and he meant the steel for a considerable depth below. He was an unusual kind of genius, the kind that are so smart they're hard to talk to.. if you know what I mean. Odd duck to say the least. I didn't want to throw the lot of what he said out the opposite ear after he told me, because Dick Casull is said to have done similar in the 50's. So who knows. Makes for good conversation. These rockwell numbers and steel datas aren't widely discussed, so some guys following this thread may find that all of value too.

True that.............

[9.3X62AL]

My 45 Colts are Rugers, and my sweet spot with those is 1000-1025 FPS from the 7.5" barrel of the BisHawk. This happens with either 10.0 grains of Unique or 11.0 grains of Herco. DO NOT USE THESE LOADS IN COLT SAA, NEW SERVICE, S&W 25-SERIES, OR COLT SAA REPROS. These are not full-snort Ruger-level loads, but are plenty for hunting most game that doesn't bite or claw you to pieces. Lyman #454424 is my usual bullet here, and #454190 gets a play from time to time. The 4-5/8" barrel loses about 100 FPS with these loads.

45 ACP or Auto Rim gets any one of several Usual Suspect powders. 185 grain bullets see 1000 FPS; 200 grainers get 900-925 FPS; 230 grain bullets get 850-875 FPS, which is what my old shop's carry loads achieve in 4.4" barrels (SIG P-220). In my Gold Cup (5") barrel, these loads (WWB 230 JHP) get about 895-905 FPS. They are not listed as +P in the literature.

[Tar Heel]

Thickness does not necessarily equate to strength.

[tejano]

Thickness does not necessarily equate to strength.

Think of any of the cows on The View.

[35 Whelen]

elmacgyver0 - interesting question and interesting answers - but I am similar to you. I don't have 44mag but do have a Uberti Cattlemam 45 Colt and a Uberti Bisley 357. While I have loaded and shot some mid-range 357 in the Bisley, I have never found the need to push the limit of either revolver as they shoot well with my mid-range loads (using Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot or BE (BE in the Bisley). Most of my shooting is out to 50 yards and I get good performance and accuracy out of both revolvers and even with my poor eyesight, I can hit paper, cans, steel, etc. The critters I have taken with both revolvers (woodchucks, coons, possums, etc.) never knew if the cast boolit was flying at 500 fps or 800 fps. Like you . . . I am not being critical nor intend it to be that way - everybody has their own thing. If, however, I wanted to shoot hotter loads, I would seek out a handgun that was designed for it, such as one of the Ruger that take the Ruger only loads - rather than pushing a revolver to the intended limit or beyond. I do the same with my .36 and .44 cap and ball revolvers I shoot with Howell cylinders - they recommend keeping them under 850 fps and I have loads that shoot well, are accurate and will do what is needed fhat are under that limit.

Once again, my comment are not meant to be critical as I think the OP asks a good questions and the answers sure provide some very interesting info. Thanks.

I find these posts interesting and have never been able to figure out why shooters think Uberti's aren't designed for, say, .357 factory loads and factory level loads.

C.I.P. (Europe's version of SAAMI) sets a MAP of 3100 bar for the .357 Magnum, which is just a smidge under 45,000 psi, just under 25% heavier than the MAP set by SAAMI. Add to this the fact that European produced .357's are required to be proofed at 1.30% of MAP (~56K psi in the case of the .357), I think it's pretty obvious the Italian revolvers are capable of handling loads far in excess of what we'll find in U.S. loading manuals or loads turned out by factories on US soil. Yet no one questions whether the Colt SA can handle .357 loads.

Regarding the cylinder size question, the Uberti SA's cylinders are indeed about .020" larger in diameter than Colt's, while the distance from the center of the cylinder to the center of the chambers is the same as a Colt.

Brian Pearce addressed this subject a couple of years ago in Handloader magazine (Mar-Apr 2017 if memory serves)-

I have tested a number of Uberti cylinders and have found them to have considerable variance in their Rockwell hardness. Most manufactured since the late 1990s have
tested at 34 and are constructed of quality 4130 series chrome-moly steel.

The Uberti revolver features a more or less .020-inch larger diameter cylinder ( 1.670 inches) than the Colt SAA ( 1.650 inches); however, the distance from the axis of
the cylinder and the center of the bore is the same. This adds significant steel to the outside of the cylinder, as well as over the bolt notch ( effectively doubling that thickness), which is the SAA pattern revolver's weak link. If your Uberti is of late manufacture, it will handle .45 Colt loads that generate similar pressures as .45 ACP factory loads
that are industry rated at 21,000 psi, or 23,000 psi for +P loads.

I drive a 3/4 ton Dodge with a 5.9L diesel because is great for pulling heavy trailers such as when I haul cattle to the sale or am hauling rolls of hay. But that doesn't mean I have to pull a loaded trailer everywhere. My wife drives an SUV capable of seating 6 passengers, but that doesn't mean she must carry six passengers everywhere she goes. One of my uncles, every 2 or 3 years, buys a new red Corvette capable of 150 mph, but he only drives them on Saturdays if it's not raining, and he doesn't have to drive 150 mph.

One of my favorite and most accurate deer hunting revolvers is a 4 3/4" Uberti Frisco in 45 Colt and my hunting load is a 288 gr. SWC running just shy of 1000 fps. This load, although well over the prescribed 14K psi, will never wear the revolver out because I only hunt with it and use lighter loads for practice and plinking. Same with my Uberti Hombre, it's shoots the 358429 bullet wonderfully when loaded hot, but right now it's loaded with a Lyman 358477 over 6.0 grs. of Unique. I have a Flat Top Uberti in .44 Special and the load I used two seasons ago on a buck ran a 429244 243 gr. SWCHP 1105 fps, but for just shooting, 6.5 grs. of Unique under a 429421 are what the revolver sees the most of.

It makes more sense for me personally to use light, handy revolvers and occasionally using heavy hunting loads in them, than carrying heavy, clunky revolvers and shooting mostly light loads in them. But, to each his own!

35W

[ddixie884]

Sounds like common sense to me.......

[rintinglen]

It makes more sense for me personally to use light, handy revolvers and occasionally using heavy hunting loads in them, than carrying heavy, clunky revolvers and shooting mostly light loads in them. But, to each his own!

To me, this short paragraph completely and succinctly relates the great advantage of a "handy" revolver. Why carry iron you don't need when you are not going to use it?

[ddixie884]

Thas what I'm talkin bout.........

[Finn45Colt]

Today I tested load 9,2gr N340 Vihtavuori, Boolit is Lee 255 FN. Gettin just shy of 900fps out of 45 Colt Uberti Catleman 4,3/4" barrel. That load is starting load in Vihtavuori reloading guide edition 14. Maximum load is 9.8gr. VV says to stay 5% below maximum..

[Char-Gar]

When I was young, limber and able to jump a three rail fence, I just had to have a 300 Weatherby and I got one. I loaded it with lots of 4350 and vaporized jackrabbits with it. Well, a little more powder would surely make the red mist a little larger, until on day I locked the rifle up. It took a gunsmith to get it open. The case head had been pushed into the bolt face and even into the firing pin hole. You could not read the case headstamp.

The rifle was undamaged, but when my gunsmith and mentor handed it back to me, he said: "If you want to drive a bigger nail, use a bigger hammer.". That was 1960 and that has been my reloading mantra ever since.

[ranchman]

Been a number of weeks since I started this thread, and I've since settled on a great load in the SA I was referring these measurements all to. Larry as usual was onto something with his discussion around 6.5grains Unique back through his own testing previously. 6.5grains under the 452423/454424 style bullet I have my mould most comparable to gave me outstanding, very consistent groups to the 25 yards I was testing them. And that charge also read very small single digit spreads over my chrony ... I got 933fps through a 5.5" barrel, loaded in Cowboy Special brass, fired through an ACP cylinder. No brass was altered, and neither was my cylinder in any shape or form either. Size the cby/spl brass, load it, drop them in and go. What a great combo for handloading a field-load to use through Single Action ACP revolvers!

I don't suspect these style of bullets are taking up as much case space as the 255KT Larry pressure tested to 21,600 (they likely take up a minute-touch less than the 255KT) so I'd imagine this load is sitting right at maximum ACP standard pressure, for 933fps. More/less.

I loaded the bullet up to 7.3 & 7.5, and didn't see anything show whatsoever for alarm, but I have no idea how close or far from 23,000 +P or +P+ it would gauge to, so I am leaving that heavier load (only) in my records for the time being. 7.3grains Unique shot 1053fps but groups were in the 2" range @25yards vs. consistently 3/4" or better with 6.5grains. So I'm ok with that. Still a very usable speed and bullet weight to work with.. and in all reality, outside of big bears, a 250 @933fps makes a real handy all around load.

230fmj Winchester, straight off the shelf ACP ammo shoots exactly the same left to right as these 250's I have with 6.5gr Unique, but the weights differ vertically by 2" at 25yards. Close enough to have the factory ACP's as a dead-nutz 25yard-zero plinker & the 250's @933fps as a 50yard zero using exactly the same hold, to double as a grab and go field load for bigger jobs from more a hunting/animal performance standpoint. Pretty slick the way that worked out. I am more than pleased.

[Jtarm]

Points all taken.. Larry & Outpost alike.

I hadn't considered the old balloon head brass likely playing its part in that old '58 cast manual that says 7.5grains unique. That point makes good sense now that you mention it.

Keith’s .44 Special load behind his namesake bullet was 18.5 grains of 2400 in ballon-head cases and 17-grains in solid-head.