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Thread: (mostly) smokeless paper patching

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    (mostly) smokeless paper patching

    As I have written before, I tend to use a lot of very slow military surplus gunpowder with my PP ammo, having found it gives the best results. Typically I'll use something like IMR4227 or Reloader 7 as a kicker to get it lit. But today I wanted to try my .350" 210 grain muzzleloader bullets in my Marlin 336 that was originally a 35 Remington, now a 358 win. The issue is the microgroove barrel's bore is .353" which normally wouldn't work with a bullet that small. So I thought, they bump up fine with black powder, so what would happen if I use that as a kicker? I loaded up some with 1cc 2Fg, plus enough WC857 to give about .100" compression with the bullet seated. Patched the bullets with the 15lb green bar paper, and they came out at .361". They're pure lead so the seating die rearranged the nose a bit but nothing too awful. Shot at 100 yds, they all grouped together at the limits of my vision, about 2 inches. I don't have any idea of the velocity but the recoil was plenty stout and they got there quick. No pressure issues, nice looking primers and easy ejection. Looks like that bullet mould will be able to serve double duty, dip lube for the muzzleloader and paper patch for the cartridge rifle. Great fun!

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    barrabruce's Avatar
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    I can’t get bulk smokeless powder here.
    It all costs the same.
    What would you recommend for a 30-30 size round.
    I did have some weird ww ball powder they stopped making after a year or two.
    But it went off anyway.
    I did a few rounds once and it must have been the loudest gun on the range.
    First without a kicker and it fertilised the grass in front of the bench.
    With a kicker well it must’ve got ignited.
    No pressure issues and it shot good.
    I may have to revisit your smokeless duplex loading but don’t know what to use.
    If I can still find something to buy.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Just using it straight, WW760 works pretty well in the 30-30. I think that's about the same thing as H414. Basically any ball powder that is safe at a 100% load likely will work, the slower the better but eventually you have to duplex it to get it to burn.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    So a boolit .003” under bore diameter was giving you 2” groups at 100 yards? Is there anything unusual about the shape of the muzzle loader boolit? Did you rechamber the 336?
    There are only two kinds of men:

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  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmitty View Post
    So a boolit .003” under bore diameter was giving you 2” groups at 100 yards? Is there anything unusual about the shape of the muzzle loader boolit? Did you rechamber the 336?
    Yes, that's it. That's why the black powder, to hopefully bump the bullet. Bullet is parallel sided with a relatively short nose, and has small "tumble lube" type grooves. I have a 700ML that I put a modern 35 caliber cartridge rifle barrel on as an experiment, and it really shines with this bullet. I did rechamber the Marlin, I got it cheap because it had a big gouge in the chamber from the factory and couldn't be fired with full power ammo. I recut the chamber and opened up the bolt face, and it works great now. I just keep the pressure down to standard 35 rem loads or usually less.

  6. #6
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    That is a good solution to a crummy chamber ! PP's have helped us a couple of times with chamber / throat issues.
    Was the 336 a Remlin ?
    I do hope Ruger gets QC squared away Before they ship out a new lever flipper.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missionary5155 View Post
    That is a good solution to a crummy chamber ! PP's have helped us a couple of times with chamber / throat issues.
    Was the 336 a Remlin ?
    I do hope Ruger gets QC squared away Before they ship out a new lever flipper.
    No, it was made back in the 1970's "when they used to care". It's the second Marlin I have bought like that, I have a 1894 44 mag with a messed up chamber also. I have been meaning to rebarrel that to a 38-40 but never did. Mainly I shoot it with black powder loads and it works fine there.

  8. #8
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    barrabruce's Avatar
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    Thanks again nobody

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Can the marlin 336 be rechambered with out removal of the barrel from the receiver? The rechambering to .358 win seems like an excellent way to solve the brass issue if the larger cartridge will feed thru the action acceptably. Also, the bumping up of a smaller than bore diameter boolit using b.p. is an interesting and useful tool to add to our toolbox of knowledge here.
    There are only two kinds of men:

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  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmitty View Post
    Can the marlin 336 be rechambered with out removal of the barrel from the receiver? The rechambering to .358 win seems like an excellent way to solve the brass issue if the larger cartridge will feed thru the action acceptably. Also, the bumping up of a smaller than bore diameter boolit using b.p. is an interesting and useful tool to add to our toolbox of knowledge here.
    I suppose it's possible, but it is so easy to remove a Marlin barrel and then you can get an actual measurement for headspace, as well as easily polish the new chamber, that I wouldn't try it. And yes, the 358 feeds really slick through the action as long as you keep the OAL to 2.550". You do need to open up the bolt face about .010" as well, the rim is a tiny bit bigger. I suppose you could go further and use 356 brass but the necked up 308 cases work just fine. Just remember to keep the ballistics down to 35 remington levels, and the pressure will be lower than the original round. Never use 358 win load data in one of these.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    I'm still using what mr. NoBade wrote some time ago. Filled to capacity w/ WC860 with a small 3-5 grain duplex igniter charge of 4227. Works well enough for me in both my 94 & Marlin (32 spec & 30 wcf Marlin 36.) Onlyest problem.
    >Limited to no magazine use.< But in my Sav 219. "That gun was made for such P-P cartridges."
    One issue but not a problem. My cartridges require a powder shelf as I do not resize my paper patched brass.
    As far as black powder use in either rifle Win or Marlin. I'm not all that found of doing. But I would do if my rifle/s were Take Down or single shot break-action models.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check