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Thread: Filler under powder?

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master

    mdi's Avatar
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    I think I'd go with Green Frogs thinking. The primer flash would have to penetrate the filler before igniting the powder (I don't agree with the "diesel" type of ignition but IMO I've experienced primers pushing the bullet out of the case before good powder ignition). To be honest I'd have to try several experiments first. Maybe with "blanks", a round with filler then powder then an over powder wad to see how much powder was blown out the barrel...

    But in 40+ years of reloading I have never used a filler and only once did I experiment with COW over a powder charge that would "scrub" the barrel on firing...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master bedbugbilly's Avatar
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    Does the term "hang fire" come ro mind for anyone else?

    I am by no means an expert on fillers but it just doesn't make sense to put ruler under powder and I don't really see a description of just "how much" or what type' of filler is being talked about.

    The only cartridge that I have ever put anything under the powder is with my Smith Carbine cartridges and they are "their own animal" - a plastic tube with a rear flash hole - loaded with BP and a hand seated boolit. I experimented with a number of ways to cover the flash hole so that BP could not trickle out of the flash hole - a common problem, with the original cartridges. Some Smith shooters say they never have the problem, but I have seen it as well as experienced it. I tried covering the flash hole externally with a layer of coffee filter paper applied with a glue stick - someone suggested using a small punched out circle of either tissue paper or wax paper, inserted internally into the plastic casing and then load the cartridge. We are only talking a very thin piece of combustible paper that is easily burned through with the musket cap flash.

    I guess if a person wants to try it . . . it's their dime . . but I can't see how a primer flash is going to burn through a thickness of filler and ignite the charge without the primer during a hole through the filler and thant seems like it would take enough of a nano-second that you would notice the same issue as a "hang fire" presents. "What" is the "filler"? Dacron Cptton? Cream of Wheat? For Meal" And just what is the column height of it in the cartridge case? How tall is the column of filler that the primer has to burn through to reach the powder? Is it a "compressed" load?

    A lot of variables that are unknown.
    Last edited by bedbugbilly; 04-04-2021 at 04:17 PM.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master

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    Filler under powder?
    The best thing about reloading is WE have the opportunity to do unusual things. Though to be honest, there are few things that haven't already been done, be it privately or commercially. Some things with out a real need or purpose are better left alone.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master hoodat's Avatar
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    This kind of reminds me of the time on another forum when someone asked about eating coyote meat. There was numerous opinions that coyote would be rank, stinky, tough, awful, poisonous, totally inedible. -- BUT -- not a single person had actually tried it. jd

  5. #25
    Boolit Master murf205's Avatar
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    Cap'n, if you do decide to try this, use a powder that is easy to ignite and not a slow burning ball powder. There is a real danger in the incomplete ignition of some powders which produces a gas that is very erratic and spikes pressures quick and high.
    IT AINT what ya shoot--its how ya shoot it. NONE of us are as smart as ALL of us!

  6. #26
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BedBug
    Smith Carbine cartridges
    BedBug...just go get a couple of sheets of THESE at Office Depot (or where ever)
    and stick over rear of hole

    Been using them on Smiths for 40 years....
    Musket cap never failed to punch right through

  7. #27
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murf205 View Post
    Cap'n, if you do decide to try this, use a powder that is easy to ignite and not a slow burning ball powder. There is a real danger in the incomplete ignition of some powders which produces a gas that is very erratic and spikes pressures quick and high.
    That was my plan; some sort of plinking-load using Red Dot or Unique under a 440 grains boolit. I'll be shooting them from an 1885 High Wall replica, and would like a low SD number to keep vertical stringing in check.
    Cap'n Morgan

  8. #28
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I also read something like that a long time ago.
    Also asked about it here.
    I've never tried it.
    To me, it just doesn't seem like it would work.

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by hoodat View Post
    This kind of reminds me of the time on another forum when someone asked about eating coyote meat. There was numerous opinions that coyote would be rank, stinky, tough, awful, poisonous, totally inedible. -- BUT -- not a single person had actually tried it. jd
    Well I'm game, ........here....let me hold your beer for you..................lol
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  10. #30
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoodat View Post
    This kind of reminds me of the time on another forum when someone asked about eating coyote meat. There was numerous opinions that coyote would be rank, stinky, tough, awful, poisonous, totally inedible. -- BUT -- not a single person had actually tried it. jd
    I've ate it, and don't recommend it if you have anything better, like skunk.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy McFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    He's using a very small amount of 1 ply tissue paper in a very small diameter cartridge of relatively small capacity... using Trail Boss... It also is a very specialized cartridge with small diameter and a longish capacity.

    Apparently, it works for that cartridge/bullet/powder combination. I would not try it with other cartridges
    Being such a specific and unique application, is why I was surprised by the lack of context included in Cap'n Morgan's original post, and why I included the link. The CB community's utter dismissal and derision could have been mitigated from the first sentence.

    Off Topic: I'll try Coyote meat, it'd be nice to be picky about what it's been eating on before hand though. I bet N. Koreans would love to eat Coyote meat, if they had the opportunity. Afterall, "hunger makes the best sauce."

  12. #32
    Boolit Master mehavey's Avatar
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    Cross-over post might be of interest

    Conflating both the H110/QuickLoad/pressure spike issue in https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=611249 and this one, I noted the comment
    that the old BPCR practice of a single piece of toilet paper over the flash-hole/under the powder -- would also serve to keep very fine ball powders out
    of that flash-channel and out of the primer itself.

    Given I could never understand how the H110 loads in the above thread could
    spike to actually expand the entire solid portion of the case head -- "belting"
    it so to speak -- I tried it yesterday with the offending LEGEND load previously
    mentioned -- but with a single 24-lb inkjet paper 'disk' over the flash-hole.

    Ten rounds... each case examined on ejection for even any hint of problem.


    Note the use of W296 instead, and even when starting burn rate is adjusted to match a higher velocity we still don't hit MaxP

    2,156±08 fps -- extremely consistent -- not even a hint of pressure effects.

    But I still don't trust the load. READER TAKE NOTE
    *** DO NOT USE ***
    Last edited by mehavey; 04-06-2021 at 11:52 PM.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master


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    Well, I've been to Korea and don't know about coyotes over there but they sure served some suspicious looking things. But we're getting off topic here...real bad./beagle

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Well I'm game, ........here....let me hold your beer for you..................lol
    diplomacy is being able to say, "nice doggie" until you find a big rock.....

  14. #34
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Well, I finally got around to test if placing the powder between the filler and the boolit - instead of the traditional powder-filler-boolit order, actually works.
    The test was done using my trusty Uberti High Wall in 45-70 with a load of 15 grains Unique, a 460 grains homemade bore-rider boolit and ordinary cotton wool for filler.



    The first picture shows the case, boolit and one grain of cotton wool. I was surprised how little it took to fill out the free space in the case.
    The second picture shows the space taken up by the cotton & powder.
    The thin black disc is the cotton compressed to a theoretical maximum (or is that minimum?)



    Anyway, I decided to keep things as simple as possible, at least to begin with. No need to load a bunch of ammo just to have the rifle go "CLICK".

    I decided to test 3x3 loads over the chronograph. All loads equal, except for the filler:
    Three loads without any filler for reference. Three loads with one grain of cotton and three loads with three grains of cotton.
    (Both filler-loads with the powder between filler and boolit)

    The first three non-filler loads gave an average velocity of1182 fps with High/Low being 1208/1169 and SD 18 fps.

    I then went for the three loads with the 3 grains of filler (this load was a filler maximum, leaving just enough room for powder and boolit after a slight compression)
    Not really knowing what to expect I pulled the trigger on the first one... The gun went bang without a hitch! Elated, I ejected the case and looked through the barrel,
    it seemed to be blocked, and when I blew lightly into the muzzle, a small tuft of cotton came out.

    I then fired the next two shots and checked the chronograph: 1147 fps with High/Low 1163/1131 and SD 14

    This was interesting; the numbers were actually a little better with the filler loads, although it would be foolish to draw any conclusions from this small of a sample.
    This time, nothing was left in the barrel, but I found remnants of the cotton from ten to twenty yards from the muzzle.

    I then tried the three loads with the one grain filler. Now, it could be a fluke, but the numbers were much more uniform this time:

    1151 fps - High/Low 1153/1149 and SD 1(!).

    Again this time one round left a tiny tuft of cotton in the barrel. It was too small to register on my electronic scale, meaning it was
    less than 0.1 grain. If left in the bore it would no doubt be blown out without the boolit ever touching it.

    So, here we are. The filler-powder-boolit combination actually works and so far seems to work better than no filler.
    Next step will be to try a larger sample with the one-grain-filler load to see if it was just a fluke. I will also try switching the powder/filler position to see which combination
    produces the most uniform velocities. This time I will also test for accuracy.

    Stay tuned.
    Cap'n Morgan

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Is that crickets I hear..?
    Cap'n Morgan

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Am I too late to be a naysayer........

    Sorry couldnt help it!

  17. #37
    Boolit Bub


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    Keeping my ears open and my mouth shut... much easier to hear that way
    Tell us more.

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Morgan View Post
    Is that crickets I hear..?
    Cap'n, early on I gave my answer based on limited experience and extensive reading and research. Since you write like you are determined to pursue this project in spite of commonly held opinions (they call it "common wisdom") I'm just sitting back now and waiting to see whether everything that has already been said and done is wrong. That's how breakthroughs are sometimes made.

    I'd be happy to hold your beer while you touch it off, but I'll stay behind this nice barrier, just in case. No crickets, just waiting to hear what happens next.

    Green Frog
    "It aint easy being green!"

  19. #39
    Boolit Master


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    The only filler I've ever used is cornmeal ON TOP OF THE POWDER.
    Wouldn't care to EVER try anything else.
    I HATE auto-correct

    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

    My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.

    SASS #375 Life

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walks View Post
    The only filler I've ever used is cornmeal ON TOP OF THE POWDER.
    Wouldn't care to EVER try anything else.
    We all have our preferences. I have tried fillers. Cornmeal is something I would never use.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check