Filler under powder?

[McFred]

I then tried the three loads with the one grain filler. Now, it could be a fluke, but the numbers were much more uniform this time:

1151 fps - High/Low 1153/1149 and SD 1(!).

Stay tuned.

I'm tuned in. Accuracy? Difference in pressure indications? Larger sample size?

[Cap'n Morgan]

I'm tuned in. Accuracy? Difference in pressure indications? Larger sample size?

I'm all out of boolits at the moment. Right now I'm waiting for the wind to slow down a bit to let me go outside and cast some more.

I did an experiment to see if a stepwise increase in the amount of cotton wool filler would still ignite the powder - thereby, perhaps, confirm my lofty theory of diesel ignition.
Well, going from three to four grains of cotton, quickly settled that question! From the look and sound of it the cartridge was a dud, but when I pulled the boolit, all the components were still there, but the pressure from the primer had compacted the powder almost to a solid plug without igniting it - so much for the "diesel" theory!
The three grains filler loads were probably close to maximum to begin with, but one grain will easily do the job.

Some years ago, I did an experiment with paper mache wads for shotgun slugs. They were pretty much a failure, and I ended up using injection molded HDPE wads instead. But I also made a few smaller paper mache wads to use as fillers in my 45-70 (over the powder, of course) They did reduce the velocity variation some, but then I got distracted by yet another project and didn't follow up on the idea.

Perhaps we need some way to differentiate between solid fillers (like corn meal, shot buffer or my paper mache wads) and "fluffy" fillers like tissue paper, Dacon and cotton wool? Obviously powder over filler will be a poor (and unnecessary) choice with solid fillers.

[tmanbuckhunter]

With all of the non-position sensitive, fluffy powders available to us I never understood the need for a filler. In thousands upon thousands of rounds loaded with powders like unique, red dot, trail boss, either 4198, or my favorite, 5744, I've never once needed a filler.

[McFred]

I never understood the need for a filler.

If you can't understand why people use fillers, can you understand that some people have different objectives than you? This entire forum and activities discussed here have nothing to do with "need."

Alternatively, most of the shelves I see today are empty of powder or being sold for $75 per pound by the scalpers. If you can use an "inappropriate" powder with a filler, then the information's nice to have, isn't it?

[tmanbuckhunter]

If you can't understand why people use fillers, can you understand that some people have different objectives than you? This entire forum and activities discussed here have nothing to do with "need."

Alternatively, most of the shelves I see today are empty of powder or being sold for $75 per pound by the scalpers. If you can use an "inappropriate" powder with a filler, then the information's nice to have, isn't it?

Never said to not use a filler. If you want to use one, then by all means go for it, so please un-wad your under garments.

As far as using inappropriate powders for the job? Go right ahead. It's your fingers, your face, and your ringed chamber we're talking about here, not mine. This has been tested a multitude of times, with reduced charges of smokeless not fit for the job with fillers causing ringed chambers. Nothing wrong with a filler if used with the appropriate powder, but the appropriate powders also don't require a filler. At that point, a filler with an appropriate smokeless powder is there to reduce extreme spread and that's about it.

I do use a filler with BPC's that have massive amounts of case volume, like 577 Snider, or bottle necked BPC's but that is an entirely different ball game.

[abunaitoo]

We must have read the same article, because I asked the same thing a while back.
It was tissue paper over the primer hole, under the powder.
Since this chinese virus, I haven't had a chance to try it.
If I rember correct, it is used by bench rest shooters.
Suppose to keep tiny powder out of the primer hole.
I'm thinking the case has to be full to hold the tissue paper over the hole.
I only use dacron as a filler.
I knew a guy who used to use TP.
Sometimes bits of it would puff out when firing.
Was kind of funny.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I did another small test, mostly just to confirm my previous primer/filler/powder experiment.
The weather has been pretty nasty lately. I didn't feel like shooting for groups while laying prone on the wet ground so accuracy test will have to wait.
I fired two loads, four rounds of each, at 50 yards.

The first four was a "normal" load with 15 grains of Unique, topped with one grain of cotton wool and a 460 grains boolit.
Unfortunately, only three of the shots registered on the chrono.

High/Low was 1161/1124 fps for an average of 1147 fps and a spread of 37 fps. The group was a tad under two inches at 50 yards.

The next four were the same load, only with the filler between primer and powder.

High/Low was 1130/1119 fps for an average of 1123 and a spread of 11 fps. The group was 1.5" - slightly smaller than the first.

Two things:
First, I wouldn't put too much value on the group size. I was shooting my Malcolm scoped 1887 High Wall Uberti over the roof of my car,
and my hold was far from steady. Still, I was pleased with the groups. If I can get the rifle to group within 3" at 100 meters, it'll be fine with me.

Next, placing the filler between primer and powder will reduce velocity variation. Though the sample was still too small for any rigid conclusions
some pattern seems to emerge (at least for this caliber/powder combination):

1. Using a fluffy filler with Unique will reduce velocity variation. It may also reduce muzzle velocity slightly, but the numbers are inconclusive.

2. Placing a fluffy filler between primer and powder (instead of powder and boolit) will reduce velocity variation significantly - perhaps as much as two thirds or more.

Next time out, I will test for accuracy. I will also try some LRM primers, maybe LP primers as well, just to satisfy my curiosity.

[mehavey]

Rather than 'filler," I would functionally describe what we seeing as ignition
diffusion/softening -- which BP shooter have long been doing by putting
paper disks over the flashhole at the bottom of the powder column.

One can't do that with partial/light loads of smokeless, however, as there
is no way to keep the paper disk in place as there is w/ compressed BP.

But a small "fluff" of combustible material will stay in place over the flashhole,
perform the same 'diffusion/softening' as the paper disk, and thereby explain
the effect.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Rather than 'filler," I would functionally describe what we seeing as ignition
diffusion/softening -- which BP shooter have long been doing by putting
paper disks over the flashhole at the bottom of the powder column.

One can't do that with partial/light loads of smokeless, however, as there
is no way to keep the paper disk in place as there is w/ compressed BP.

But a small "fluff" of combustible material will stay in place over the flashhole,
perform the same 'diffusion/softening' as the paper disk, and thereby explain
the effect.

Yep, this. I use tracing paper but I've seen people use up to .025 card wads over the flash hole as well. One very good bpcr silhouette shooter recommends coffee filters due to the type of paper. It does shave a few points off of ES and SD. Helps on the turkeys.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Useless tidbit: Black powder has an ignition temperature of 500 °F. Smokeless only 320° F - 360°F. I would have thought it was the other way around.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Useless tidbit: Black powder has an ignition temperature of 500 °F. Smokeless only 320° F - 360°F. I would have thought it was the other way around.

Didnt know that either. With as easy as BP is to ignite, you really would think it's the other way around.

[GARD72977]

Im very intrested. Thanks for the work you have put into it.


It would be nice if people that dont like or understand what you are doing would start thier own thread and stay out of this one.

[Outpost75]

Reading this thread reminds me of a long ago exchange between Frank Marshall and Bob Sears as to whether cat tail fluff or duck feathers gave better patterns in wadding a black powder shotgun. O.H. McKagen chimed in and said you guys are both full of it. When I was a kid in South Carolina we wouldn't think of using anything but cotton picked by an old Mammy by the light of a full moon to the music of bullfrogs singing.

[Bigslug]

Fascinating. The best Science is Weird Science, I always say.

It's going to take some serious wringing out to determine if this is something to swear by or not. We know it is possible to load crazy-consistent ammo without this process, so I guess what needs to be done is to figure out what a given rifle is capable of with it's best filler and non-filler loads worked up without consideration of each other. I don't think we really care if 15 grains of Unique is more accurate with filler than it is without - I think we want to know if filler and non-filler loads worked up with equal care show demonstrable advantage. If that appears across multiple rifles, powder types, and load fill densities, then it's probably time to sit up and say "Hmmmmmmmm".

Any chance that the small quantities of flaming cotton are spreading through the powder stack and igniting it more evenly?

Appropo of I don't know what, this reminds me somewhat of something either the Mann brothers or maybe Townsend Whelan tried. They welded brass flash tubes inside the cartridge cases to carry the flash of the primer forward to ignite the stack front-first. Got good results as I recall, but the practical logistics were a bit daunting.

[barrabruce]

Well I had to have a go a this myself today at range.
I loaded a 310 cadet case with a bit of Dacron then placed the 2 grains of bullseye on top and hand seated a bullet.
I used a small rifle primer.

Me ‘ol mate next to me as I was explaining to him how this is supposed to work; takes two huge steps backwards and off to the side when I load up and take aim.

I take aim and hit my 50 yard swinger which sounded the same as usual and with a decent thud.

Looking down he barrel I see some blobs of burnt plastic here and there.

I wiped them out with a patch and remarked that Maybe it would work with less filler in it.

So I put a small ball in the mouth of the case and pushed it down a little and put the powder on top and loaded another case.

This time I had a shot at a sticky dot on target and the bullet went into the group of the normal way of loading.

Still had some burnt granules of plastic filler in the bore.

By this time some people are watching and listening so they can tell the tale of how I achieved my Darwin Award.

Patched out and tried some 50 wool/50 polyester batting.
Sort of smelt like burnt flesh and still had globs of hard plastic in the bore.

So all I can say is it does work with this small case but I’m getting plastic mummies which I’m reluctant to put another round through my 100 yr ‘ol banger without cleaning first.

I have moved on to finger lubing my bullets after hand seating.
And using no filler is less time consuming and accurate enough for my not so perfect cases and second rate bullets for practicing my off hand shooting and swinger hitting practice.

I don’t know how I can load them his way without plastic hard burnt debri.
I think powder first helps blow it out and is cleaner.

Interesting thou and I may have to try it again.

Just have to get by the debri in the barrel.
It would be good to see how well I could get but I can put a group of ten of around an inch at 50yrds and with open sights off the bags and I seem to be at my limit of ability anyway.

Thanks for the thread.
I’ve enjoyed it.
Bruce.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Hi Bruce.

Nice to see someone daring to challenge death and settled wisdom in the name of science.

I, too, got leftovers in the barrel, but as I was using pure cotton it was only very tiny, slightly blackened, tufts.
Now, cotton either burns or dont burn, but Dacron is made from polyester fibers and will pass through a melting phase before burning
and melted plastics will lump together in the globs you mention.

The obvious solution would be to use nitrocellulose (flash cotton/guncotton) for filler as this would leave only miniscule ashes behind
and the tiny amount necessary would hardly affect pressure. You can buy flash cotton as a magicians prop, and I will probably give it a try later on.
(as a kid, I once made my own flash cotton, back in mum's cellar, but nowadays I think I'll leave it to the pros)

I have a number of 45-70 loads waiting for accuracy testing, and will probably make a new nose-pour mold in the 440-460 grains range.

A report (or gun obituary, maybe) will be forthcoming...

[barrabruce]

Captain.
All that I’ve read about gun cotton is that it becomes unstable after time or breaks down.
That and tends explode instead of burns.
I looked into it once as a power source for light loads as a fluffy wad would seem to work well and easy to produce but I rethought once I had read about it.

Something like it makes a high energy shock wave or something.

As usual I may be wrong.

Be safe.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Bruce.
Unstable guncotton was a very real thing in the beginning and caused some devastating explosions, both during production and in storage.
It took many years before it was discovered that the nitrated cotton must be completely rinsed to remove any trace of acid.

From Wikipedia "The washing and drying times of the nitrocellulose were both extended to 48 hours and repeated eight times over"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroc...trocelluloses.

[Bent Ramrod]

A single shot rifle, or a bolt gun, single-loaded, is the way to go in testing ideas like this.

Make sure you have a stout cleaning rod along in case you stick a boolit in the barrel.

Back when the caliber was obsolete, and ammo and shells hard to find, a friend found some .44-40 reloads at a gun show. We repaired to the desert and he loaded up his half-magazine Model 92. The first shot sounded funny, and the shell popped out of the breech like a champagne cork, trailing a wisp of smoke and a dribble of yellow powder into the action. A light cleaning rod only went halfway down the barrel and stopped. That was the end of that shooting session.

He took it home, tapped a piece of drill rod through the barrel, and out the breech came the jacketed bullet, with another mess of yellow powder. He broke down the rest of the ammo, and we determined that it was loaded with approximately a 50:50 volume mix of 2400 or 4227 and corn meal or Cream of Wheat. What order the two were introduced was unknown. Lesson number XXXVIII of Rule Number 1: “Don’t shoot other peoples’ reloads.”

A more easily ignitable powder and/or a more permeable filler (like cotton or kapok) might allow the shooter to get away with this, but I’d have to see a marked increase in accuracy or some other advantage) before I’d load 50 of them for a shooting session. And I’d have that rod along, too.