Filler under powder?

[Cap'n Morgan]

Some time ago I read an interesting thread on the AccurateReloading forum. A poster explained how he would place the filler under the powder (between powder & primer, instead of between powder & bullet) to avoid the risc of a pressure wave "ringing" the chamber. He claimed there was no problems with ignition and SD numbers were good - and no "leftovers" in the barrel afterwards. The poster came across as a person who knew what he was doing, and the more I think about it the more sense it makes to me. Has anybody in here tried this approach? I plan on giving it a try in my 45-70 and do a velocity test on two identical loads, except for the filler switcheroo.

[Nobade]

Did he write that on April 1st? I can't imagine that working.

[Beerd]

Cap'n,
If I were you I would hold off on my plan until receiving more feed back here.
..

[Larry Gibson]

I've been prone to test a few crazy ideas and myths. However, there are even some things I won't test.........

[mehavey]

...poster explained how he would place the filler under the powder (between powder & primer,
instead of between powder & bullet) to avoid the risc of a pressure wave "ringing" the chamber.

That OP poster was 100% correct.
It won't ring the chamber.

[RickinTN]

I wouldn't even consider it. Either it was April fools day, or he was drinking or smoking something cheap. It actually makes no sense whatsoever.
Rick

[murf205]

Cap'n, I'm not a ballistician by a long shot but it would appear to me that, in that scenario, you would have to ignite the filler before the powder charge and the term "erratic" is the first thing that comes to mind. Sounds scary to me.

[jsizemore]

Was he using powder as the filler?

[Cap'n Morgan]

Well, I see a lot of skepticismen on the subject, that's why I decided to ask here in the first place. When I first read about it I had my doubt as well, but then it occurred to me that perhaps the idea of the primer flash having to hit the powder charge directly was wrong - after all, a diesel engine runs just fine igniting fuel by compression heat only, just as a sharp rap on a fire piston will ignite a piece of tinder. If the same principle is involved in a cartridge, then, perhaps, the pressure from the primer explosion will ignite the powder even if shielded from the direct flame front.

...or my theory is pure nonsens, but the primer blast is still powerful enough to blast through the filler, be it Dacon, cotton or tissue paper, and do its thing. Anyway, I'll give it a try one of these days. The worst thing that could happen is that nothing happens! The next worse thing would be a boolit stuck in the barrel, but that's what experimenting is all about. Legend has it, it took Edison a thousand tries to come up with a working lightbulb. In the light of that achievement (pun intended) loading a dozen 45-70 should be manageable

[gwpercle]

Sounds like convoluted thinking trying to make you believe what he believes is right .
Were any names , dates , test data offered ... or will you be "the First" to try this theory out ?

Let us know how it goes ... I'm about ready to believe anything now but I would like to see the truth about this one ...putting the filler over the primer between the powder / boolit just doesn't seem logical ... I've been reloading over 50 years but always willing to look at new tested data .
Gary

[Mk42gunner]

I have read of people using a single layer of newsprint next to the primer in black powder cartridges. That to me is not a filler, more like a flash dispersant or repressor.

I never tried it when I was loading BP cartridges.

Robert

[Green Frog]

To be blunt, not only no, but **** NO!! If you did get the primer flash to somehow make it through the filler, you would lose so much power that powder ignition would be spotty at best, nonexistent at worst.

The only way that could be used with any assurance that it would work is to combine it with another hare brained scheme somebody came up many years ago, a primer flash tube that carried the flash up from the base and bounced it off the back of the bullet to ignite the powder charge from the front. Never heard of it? That’s probably because that didn’t work very well either! It certainly wasn’t worth the expense to hand make the shells.

I think mehavey is right about it not ringing the chamber... you need the powder to ignite for that to happen.

Froggie

[Old Caster]

If you try this be careful because possibly the primer may not ignite the powder immediately and maybe just glow the filler and ignite the powder later after you remove the cartridge.

[Mr_Sheesh]

That's be exciting but not fun.

[beagle]

That was Emer Keith and it actually worked and they achieved a significant velocity gain with the same or lower pressures. Basically the same system the Army uses today in the 105MM howitzer and .50 Spotter Tracer round. An extended tube ignites the front end of the charge first.

Dunno about the under filler thing. I've seen BP shooters place a kitchen match head over the primer to provide better ignition and John Buhmiller was dropping a live primer in the bottom of his .45 Magnums for elephant hunting in order to ignite Hodgdon 4831 better but he was strange and made .45 solids by pouring steel cased .45 ACP cases full of lead, turning a RN profile on the base and loading them for elephant "cropping". Supposedly worked quite well. Bet barrels didn't last long.

There was a guy several years back that had computed the internal area of a .38-55 case and was cutting precision cardboard squares. He'd roll these and drop in the case before loading and it reduced case volume and gave better ignition much as do the reduced capacity machined cases that are so expensive. Lasted one firing and I'd be afraid of one in the barrel./beagle

To be blunt, not only no, but **** NO!! If you did get the primer flash to somehow make it through the filler, you would lose so much power that powder ignition would be spotty at best, nonexistent at worst.

The only way that could be used with any assurance that it would work is to combine it with another hare brained scheme somebody came up many years ago, a primer flash tube that carried the flash up from the base and bounced it off the back of the bullet to ignite the powder charge from the front. Never heard of it? That’s probably because that didn’t work very well either! It certainly wasn’t worth the expense to hand make the shells.

I think mehavey is right about it not ringing the chamber... you need the powder to ignite for that to happen.

Froggie

[McFred]

Some time ago I read an interesting thread on the AccurateReloading forum. A poster explained how he would place the filler under the powder (between powder & primer, instead of between powder & bullet)

Why ask the question without context when it permits such opportunity for speculation?

Was it this thread?
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/9481094362

If it was it seems he posted the details, the load, the velocities and accuracy for a ~120 year old rifle. Seems like it works just fine in that context.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Was it this thread?
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/9481094362

McFred

Yes, that's the one. I did a search but couldn't find it. Thanks!

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve heard all sorts of things about the use of fillers. Using fillers are a must or you don’t need them at all. I’ve even heard it depended if you were using a jacked bullet or plain lead. This idea does seem a little out there, but a good primer should burn through Dacron fillers without any problem. I’d say give it a try and let us know. I wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t make any difference.

I’m about to experiment with some reduced power BP loads. I’m sure I’ll need something to fill the void. I plan on using Cream of Wheat.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Like beagle said, the flash tube is used in artillery ammunition, Artillery ammo powder is bagged and charges varied (number of powder bags used) based on range with a primer cartridge to start things. Elmer Keith did use it also, cost and lost case capacity were problems. Modern powders have solved a lot of those problems. A paper disc to cover the primer has been/is sometimes used to keep fine powders out of the primer. The fine ball powders getting in the primer can give false impressions of high pressure.

[Larry Gibson]

Why ask the question without context when it permits such opportunity for speculation?

Was it this thread?
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/...3/m/9481094362

If it was it seems he posted the details, the load, the velocities and accuracy for a ~120 year old rifle. Seems like it works just fine in that context.

He's using a very small amount of 1 ply tissue paper in a very small diameter cartridge of relatively small capacity. He's also using Trail Boss which isn't supposed to need any filler. It also is a very specialized cartridge with small diameter and a longish capacity. The flame from the primers is able to burn through the tissue to ignite the TrailBoss. Apparently it works for that cartridge/bullet/powder combination. I would not try it with other cartridges, especially with other fillers (the small amount of tissue is more of a 'wad" than a filler) as we use them. Also, back in my early experiments with "fillers and wads" I had to stomp out several fires in front of the bench from burning cotton and tissue igniting the dry grass. Never a problem with dacron fillers.