Dipping my toes into PCP Air Guns

[OS OK]

...charlie...

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well done sir!

Randy

[dverna]

KILL THE WABBIT! KILL THE WABBIT!

The rich old guys use F-class guns and $20/box .22's. The poor old guys use air guns and $6.24/500 pellets.

The Wascally Wabbit stops laughing at us Elmer Fudds when either CONNECT!!! LOL!

[Racing]

Thought i´d chime in.
Have been around PCP´s for a while, and as such thought it´d be a neat thing with a project.
To "boost" so to say, why when i found this thread thought to myself that you guys might find of interest.

That said.
I just recently picked up a regular Hatsan BT-65 RB LW Elite kit for cheap. RB standing for "rear bolt", so nope.. no lever on this one. LW in turn for Lothar Walter barrel.



Elite "kit" brings a plastic case, a "bipod", a scope, sling and what not. A 25cal rifle in this case.
According to the seller hardly used, and seeing the stickers on it telling summer of 2020 manufacture.. go figure



These guns are rather popular around here why i turned to my peers and asked what to do. Basically all of them told to lighten the hammer. Severly. So, i did. Skeleton cut it on my mill basically



..which made weight drop by approx 50%. As it turns out, they were right... So all for the better.





Hm. Scopes has been mentioned. The rings that came with the gun made the damn thing stick out like a tower, so replaced that which put the scope WAY more inline with the bore. Came to revise that tho.. But for "now" it was all good i guess.



As far as hotroddin´ many, albeit far from all, many PCP´s work of a more or less massive valve. Again.. peers, who told that the valve pin needs swapped as does the spring for it and in turn the inlet valve needs modified.
FWIW, this is NOT rocket science!



Then.. sometimes S just F up right. So there i was cutting into the original valve pin on a saturday when i of course overdid it and broke the thing.
What to do?
Well. I run sorts of a shop sporting lathes, mills...the whole 9.. so i stretched into the bin and thought to hell with it and dug out a piece of high end Alumec. To approx be compared to titanium grade 6.
Can you say overkill? Whatever... a VERY light and VERY hard and VERY stiff valve pin it got..



Yeah. The thing even came with a torch. But of course the stand/ring for that was a mile high too so.. In turn drilled and tapped for a small "bracket" to keep the wiring such that the pressure sensor was an easy to reach with my thumb at will.

[Racing]

Lothar Walter barrel might be, but the Hatsan BT-65 is no expensive gun and it shows.. the thing looked like it´d been installed during a fire.
So handed it some love at both ends AND as has already been touched upon.. a good clean. I thought.
Anyways.



Yeah. Well. Again. Hotroddin´at its finest right? The valve outlet ports were said to be an issue, so i just took an endmill to ´em and done deal.
At this point.. here´s the deal. As you start pushing pellets much past 900fps they´re not all that anymore and as the idea here is for BOTH "power" and accuracy i tend to end up using so called slugs more than anything. Still debating which, but the mainstay is either 34 grain Knock outs or 31 grain Grizzlys. Both hollow points that break up REAL well on rodents.
Thing here is that my "go to" is an FX Impact in 25 cal (hey! i live in Sweden remember!) and an FX the Hatsan is surely not but.. accuracy is accuray and speed is speed no matter.
On that i am rather anal about keeping speeds sub sonic. Ie; 1050-1070fps does it. That way it becomes WAY simpler to keep the damn thing quiet...
But.
Slugs crave a different choke amount than does pellets no doubt and the LW barrel of that Hatsan is no doubt set up for pellets. So.. with slugs accuracy was so-so.
..and this is where it got ugly. I pushed a number of pellets and slugs both down the bore to quickly come to the conclusion that the choking of the barrel was set to like the last 10mm (approx 1/2") down the muzzle. Now. The Hatsan BT comes precut at 1/2"UNF at the muzzle AND it does carry a "lead" for simpler install of accesories.
So what i did was cut this lead away (approx 5mm), and turn a new such further back in on the lathe. No worries, there´s still AMPLE amounts of thread left..
Then i turned a brass plug to install on a regular piece of cleaning rod, applied some fine valve grinding compound and let it rip at the end of a drill.
As such an educated guess is that i removed like maybe 60-65% of the choke and done deal.
As it turns out, good move..
Slug gun indeed.

Make no mistake. A 22 or 25 or 30 cal slug gun can be used for accuracy work out to 300 and 400 yards, and TBH beyond that even. A pellet in turn will fall flat on its face at like 100...max.



Shroud or moderator? Or both? Well, i run both on my Impact and that thing is deadly quiet. To the letter. All you hear is the hammer spring decompress as it fires - no BS.
The Hatsan.. i turn my own cans out of aluminium and these work rather well. Ditto then for the Hatsan right... As it turns out, the little things..
Friend just tossed his hedder wrap for his engine in the bin. Thought i´d try it so picked that up and wrapped the cans with, securing them with regular self tapping..
Lo n behold. Turns out that aluminium has a ring to it.. and that turned into a dead "thud" in wrapped edition so.. kept that



Now. As an OPINION then.. Accuracy, as in repeatable behavior, take a regulator - which the BT-65 lacks. So picked a dirt cheap one up on e-bay from a guy in Lithuania. At 65$.. who cares, kind a..
Well. To make that thing seal the stock surfaces left by Hatsan does NOT suffice so.. lathe time. Again. That done though the actual valve works a million bux.
Didn´t fit worth a crap as i got it (to large diameter), but that was a simple remedy on the lathe (again).
But.
A regulator hands you repeated pressure (and in essence volume) for way more shots than not so equipped and the thing here is that most cheaper guns that lack them can be so equipped.

Before the install i was seeing an easy 1070fps on my LabRadar... having settled though i tend to keep it on the north side of 950.
1075fps at 34 grains.. that´s like 120 Joules just about. In other words basically on par with your regular 22LR..
Thing is though that with a reg power is very very simple to tune.

That said i´ve come to open up the actual valve seat diameter to 7mm flat.. i´ve cut the so called transfer port larger.. cut the opening in the barrel larger.. and so on. No GIANT steps but.. important such.
That done tuning is very much about a few simple things.
Pressure (or course) and then hammer spring tension (which is almost always adjustable) and then in turn valve "nut" depth.
Yes.
The hammer comes down on sorts of a "ram" on the valve pin end, and this is often threaded to be set at different heights. A chronograf is an ESSENTIAL tool fooling around with these three, make no mistake.
If power AND accuracy is what you´re after there´s no two ways about that.



Barrels.. yeah. Many bitch about the Q of the Hatsan barrels, hence why they´re ALSO sold with German made Lothar Walter barrels i guess. However, the LW barrels sure look like they were tossed on there in a hurry so.. i treated this one to a fresh crown and polished the "chamber" and forcing cone both.
Cleaning has been touched upon? Be adviced that as these imports reach US soil they´ve been treated not to rust on their crossing of the Atlantic or whatever and this crud NEEDS to be removed.
Have in mind that these are low power guns after all. As i wrote above i THOUGHT i cleaned mine out but..

[Racing]

25cal jags are far apart around here so i turned my own. Simple enough..



Yeah. On that...
Nuff said.
NOW it´s clean!



Alright. But? What about bullet jump, or lead? We debate that all the time with powder burners right, and FX even sells a "slug kit" for the Impact and what not.
Checked and sure enough.. the probe on the Hatsan, not even close. So.. again lathe time. Very simple mod, steel in case is real soft and i just drilled a 3,2mm hole i tapped M4 and shoved a screw in there which i turned down for the front most part of it. All good i guess, and as such..
The stock dimension of the probe is approx 69mm. I ended up using 72mm and that indeed presents the slug to the rifling BEFORE firing.
Yep.
Sure made for a difference!

So. What´s to be expected here? Is the gun "done"? No no no.. not by a long shot. Things has progressed in such a manner that the next step is to fab a decent working shroud for it.
Yep. Want it more quiet still, and shrouds DO work (that spring on the Impact remember?).
In turn, things has turned out well enough that that god awful synthetic stock needs to go. Wood it is.
Thing here is that the main use for it, and the Impact for what it´s worth, is rodent control at the shop. In a few weeks we´re talking 44 of them, some of them the damn size of minor cats!
Ok.
All good i guess. Accuracy? Will it deliver, this "el-cheapo" PCP gun?



Yeah well guys, you tell me. That there is two cylinders worth. Ie; 18 shots.



That there in turn one cylinder. Ie; 9 shots.
So yeah. I´d say we´re on the right path at least. Head shots at rats at 25 to 50 yards, all day. You even blow mice out of the water at those distances.
But.. of course we´re aiming further.

This IS a project after all, and a rather fun such. Working on pneumatics isn´t the end of the world, and real world results on "our" guns very quick to verify. Chrono says it all.
Cans/silencers/moderators btw are REAL easy to fab for sub sonic guns. As PCP are not considered guns in most countries..

Yep.
Rev the tools up n go i say!

[dverna]

Racing,
Very interesting read,

Curious as to the range those targets were shot at....figure 50 meters?

Also wondering if you cast slugs or buy them.

You guys across the big pond are way ahead on this stuff.

Btw, some states here have laws prohibiting suppressors even on air guns.....yes we are backward! Luckily, I live where they are legal, but I would never make one as some government jerk will think it is for one of my rimfires, and that is a felony. So, I wound up spending $150 to get one for my Daystate. Better safe than sorry.

[Racing]

Thx.
What i´m trying to get across is that to large part slugs, as they´re called, are the future on most counts.
FX in turn has spent, and spends, great deals of time evaluating and exploring this.
Point being that barrels choked for pellets are a different story from slug ones, and what i´m trying to say is that as a slug barrel needs less choke a pellet barrel can no doubt be transformed, even with hand tools.

On "back yard friendly" in turn. The less these things go "boom" the better in my book and moderators (to keep them apart) are a far cry from silencers for powder burners. For instance, i fill mine with regular Wettex rags (yes as in kitchen rags) to great effect and in turn the front end dimensions/thickness is such that should someone ever try using it on a powder burner it would burn and go boom both.

Truth be told though IMO you haven´t really tried PCP until you´ve shot an FX. Really. Or more to the point, a modern FX like the Wildcat, Crown, Impact or what not.
FX is FX so to say and they basically leave the rest of the pack behind. No, that is NOT saying rest of them are bad by any measure...
Having used a well surpressed Impact tho.. no turning back in my book.
Just look at Rick on YT using his to pinpoint shots with his 25cal at 400+ yards... Indeed, these guns are NO toys by any measure these days and indeed PCP hunting is massively on the rise.

As you can gather tho, as i write above, a 34grain slug that expands like no tomorrow at 1000+fps and a rat.. you do the math LOL
Sure gets the job done though.

[Racing]

On slugs btw.
Buy mine. JSB Knock Outs and H&N Grizzlys.
34 and 31 grains respectively.

[sparky45]

Great write-up Racing! Most don't have the resources you do (lathe/mill) so modifying a PCP isn't an option. I have a .22 PCP that I'm getting broke in and really want to use slugs, so I am interested in opening the choke to make it breathe easier. Again great write-up.

[dverna]

Racing,

I have read that some air gunners will have two barrels for their PCP's. One choked for pellets and another un-choked for slugs.

There are a few folks who hunt with air guns but of the hundreds of shooters I have met over the last 50 years none have used an air gun for anything larger than a rabbit. And I know of no one pushing past 100 yards even for punching paper. But things are changing. In Michigan we can hunt deer and bear with air guns! Not something I have any interest in doing BTW!

Last year I had an RWS springer I had not shot in years and now have two PCP rifles and just ordered two PCP pistols. The RWS was sold to a friend. I have gone from "dipping my toes" to at least "up to my knees" with PCP's. So far, they have exceeded my expectations wrt to accuracy.

[Racing]

Things indeed have evolved. Hunting with airguns is mainstay to some these days, and the power levels reached are nothing short of insane.
What´s more, to you guys, as airguns are not firearms be aware of the full auto Hatsan Blitz. Can be had in 30 caliber and fires at approx 1000rds/min.
Check youtube for that one too.

As accuracy is normally up on these PCP rifles many use even lower cal guns to hunt hogs for instance. A 120 Joule 25cal, that expands like crazy, and headshots are more the norm than anything.

So to state that there´s an "evolution" or even revolution going on is being rather to the point IMO. Can, and will, PCP guns replace powder burners?
Not by a long shot but they ARE an alternative, as can be readily seen.

Yep. Many keep two barrels. I fail to see the point though for MY needs as a slug gun does all i could ask, and then some really. For rodent control i´d even go as far as saying that a muffled 25cal is EXACTLY what the doctor ordered.
Just about silent, and thus can be used basically everywhere, accurate as hell and turns hunting rats and mice into a downright sport. A mouse on the move at 30 yards is a challenge to say the least.

But yeah. LOADS can be done to basic PCP´s to enhance their performance. Even the downright stockers benefit from tuning what´s there to be altered - with a chrono at hand.
Making them "air efficient" is half the fun in my book.

[Racing]

On the FX Impact then.
Mine is in 25 cal, as is the Hatsan in case. Impact of mine sure has seen a lot of "development" over time.



In essence they´re so accurate they´re damn laser beams. Really. Mine a rather early one, but no matter as it´s been upgraded beyond belief.



One VERY worth while upgrade for the older guns is the "power plenum". These days these can be had at 72cc´s.. mine is an earlier 54cc one. Then again.. have yet another one i made myself installed to the regulator pressure port of yet another approx 65cc´s.. and they indeed DO work.
A "power plenum" makes for that less actual pressure is needed to reach a given power goal..
(Before anyone asks, the revolver in case is an old original Whitney Navy - in rather good shooting condition that i use every chance i get)



Mark the difference between a shroud and a silencer, per se. Hatsan for instance offer their guns with the so called "QE" system. Believe that stands for quiet energy and uses a factory shroud and moderator both - as a combined unit, and these DO make for a rather profound difference. Claims is a cut in noise of an easy 50%, and i for one can just attest to that. Shrouds alone make for a hell of a difference, where law is an issue.
Point being that the Hatsan QE guns are sold in the US too, and then as factory items. On that small diameter moderator, have moved away from those since. These days i make ´em out of 50-70mm diameter tubing, depending on application.



Indeed. The ammo i mainly use. IMO slugs is where it´s at and factory such isn´t an arm and a leg. A newcomer here is the Slovak ZAN brand, which i plan to check out shortly.
That said though LOADS is to be learned for the PCP industry from the blackpowder crowd as velocitys are about on par, but for some reason there´s always those that know "better".
Thus BS ideas like boat tail boolits are marketed as the hot thing ATM, which is of course just pure folly - and we KNOW it to be.
In short.. as usual stay wary as far as claims..
I´ll just stick to the chopped off rear ones for now, thank you very much..



On moderators in turn. Yes, wrapping an aluminium can DOES work. Look whatever it may... (This one is at the end of the Impact )

[Racing]

One of the many many vids on the Hatsan Blitz. As it´s an airgun.. legal as full auto.

[W.R.Buchanan]

So Racing,,, are you the guy in the video with the 12 ga air rifle? Those slugs are well Sussed Out on the Casting and Reloading for Shotguns Forum at right here at Castboolits.com. They are 12 ga slugs known as Botfly Slugs that Leon/Blood Trail has hunted with extensively. In fact he shot a bear with one recently.

Petander in Finland has shot the 20 ga version and gotten some decent results.

The power is definitely there, it is just a matter of getting the accuracy up to snuff and repeatable. Powder Coating is definitely the way to go, and you should check your barrel for leading from the rounds you fired before you shot the PC'd ones. With a clean barrel those PC'd slugs should shoot great.

I was not at all ready for that first shot, and it didn't look like you were either! Stuck discharge valve?

Still 900 fps with a 500+ gr slug is not too shabby. We don't go much over about 1200-1300 fps in our shotguns.

Pretty awesome launcher you've got there.

Randy

[Racing]

No.
No i'm not the guy in the vids.

My focus when it comes to guns has come to be blackpowder such.
Rather involved, have to say, and part of gun club boards on the matter and what not.
For instance, hope to attend Creedmoors 150 year with my original Whitworth rifle come 2024.
So yeah, i spend WAY to much time on BP guns, my own n customers both.

Just happend to stumble onto the PCP world by chance really and one thing led to another on that count too.
My main appreciation of PCP guns being that we can basically use them any and everywhere around here as long as basics is taken into account when it comes to safety et al.
On paper, silencers are prohobited here too sans a permit but as most stock PCP guns sold sport both shrouds and moderators noone really cares anymore so.. we ALL use them - one way or another. Home brew or a DonnyFL or.. No matter. Law has been ruled to be revised as far as SILENCERS around here already where we're at so.. ( no permit needed). Mind you, a moderator is NOT a silencer. Two different things. Difference, to us, being that a moderator lacks any and all internal baffling.

If you approach this from a pragmatic perspective it stands to reason really.
Shooting your PCP in the garden or whatever, a relatively silent such makes that the folk next door couldn't care less. In other words, it's a win-win.

On that matter i scored a 700mm so called Superior Heavy liner for my Impact today, 25cal of course.
As stated FX has put a bit of effort into dwelling on the matter and has not only succeeded but have broken new ground doing so.
Rifling on these liners for instance is imprinted from the outside.
Ie; no cutting going on what so ever. In fact, these liners are delivered blank and fully polished within and THEN "rifled" from the outside by force from a wheel rolling down the length of the barrel in basically any config you wish for.
Rifling twist, depth and so forth set by CNC control.
Amazing if you think about it.

But yeah. That Superior Heavy liner is a so called slug liner so it's going to be extremely interesting to evaluate the differences vs the Mk1 barrel on there.
Which btw shoots slugs very well as is.

As for hunting with PCP guns across the line however, nah.
Not my cup of tea, albeit i guess YMMV. Me i'm to much of a traditionalist and will stick to the powder burners for that task thank you very much.

[Racing]

Btw.
I believe moderators to be legal in the US as well. Mark the difference, it´s an important one from a legal standpoint.
Many many PCP rifles these days are sold with either what´s known as a shroud or a moderator, or even both.
One of the biggest names when it comes to moderators is Donny FL and Donny FL can of course be found online. My guess, being all to aware that laws differ between states, is that them guys can clue you in if legal or not in YOUR state.

Apart from stock PCP´s being so equipped Donny FL sells their moderators across the world these days. Ie; they´re to be found anywhere.
In turn, if you think about it, it´d be a bit backwards if let´s say Hatsan can sell their shroud and moderator both equipped guns under their "QE" system but YOU wouldn´t be allowed to install a Donny FL on your rifle, that normally comes with a 1/2"UNF thread up front already from the factory.
Many, if not all, major manufacturers of PCP guns these days offer that option. My FX Impact for instance comes with a factory shroud, and that shroud works the same way a moderator does really.

Reason for bringing it up to debate, with that in mind that it MIGHT be state dependant, is what i put forth above. That noone loves the loud crack in your garden, and for the most part that´s what this is. "Garden guns", where many of them can be used for small game hunting too of course.
No matter.
Muffling that "crack" in essence makes everyone around more happy.

Also be aware that an airgun does normally not rule under the same laws as true firearms does. Know first hand that in most states an airgun isn´t even considered a firearm, and are thus not ruled under the laws of firearms.
But.
Again, i presume this to be dependant of which state you reside in? I guess.

Be aware that airgun moderators simply can not withstand being used on a "true" firearm. As such it´d fail, many a time big time. Hence why i make my own moderators with a mere 1mm front end material thickness out of low grade aluminium. Should you ever try that piece on a mere 22LR the thing´ll blow apart like there´s no tomorrow.
So.
Distinction between a moderator and a silencer. NOT the same thing.

[Racing]

This is a Donny FL equipped gun. AFAI understand perfectly legal in most states in the US.

[dverna]

I have a Donny FL on my Daystate and it made a significant difference.

[chutesnreloads]

Thanks to all you enablers out there, I've now slipped into the dark PCP abyss. Should have known better than to associate with y'all,
lurking around this site got me to that nasty habit of casting lead et al,,,
Been meaning for a while to write a lengthy report on my discoveries with air power mostly for backyard pest control but also some fun.
Like many I started with the multi pumps and then spring piston. Never had a BB gun, Dad believed (I now believe rightly) that BB guns
weren't powerful enough to have the respect a gun should have especially from a little boy. I should add I now also don't believe BB guns
accurate enough to teach proper shooting skills but maybe its just me.
After a lot of research I settled on the Umarex Origin. Deciding factors were that since I feel a need to have a hand pump even if just for emergencies, then a pump would be part of the initial purchase. The Origin comes with a pump although now they can be had with the
rifle alone. The Origin is reputed to be hand pump "friendly" compared to other PCPs. Last and maybe most important, the Origin will
shoot slugs accurately which should boost its effective range considerably.
One of the biggest excuses for this decision was a couple yahoos on here "taunting" me into shooting pellets considerably further than one has any business shooting at critters. Remember my air guns are mainly for pest control. I already knew but confirmed that shooting pellets much farther than I can shoot in the backyard and actually hitting the aim point with the 1st shot is HIGHLY dependent on knowing the distance to target and making correct holdover or scope adjustment. This gets exponentially more important as range increases. I'm expecting that being able to shoot slugs with their higher BC's and at higher velocity than even a "magnum" springer can.... range estimation will be at least a
little less critical. It will be interesting to see how far shooting at targets for fun can get.
With only 50 shots through the rifle so far, I'll wait before writing any observations on it.