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Thread: A High Temp Felix Lube

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
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    A High Temp Felix Lube

    Caution: lye is lethal, especially to kids. I’ve read lye-water tastes sweet before it burns. Lye fumes are also extremely dangerous.
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    I live in SC and I don’t want to worry about my Felix lube melting while cartridges are in the sun at times. So, I’ve done some experimenting with sodium stearate instead of Ivory. I made some Wilgen blend with stearic acid. I added some 175F melt temperature microcrystalline wax to elevate melt temperatures. Now I am experimenting with homemade soap made from castor oil & bees wax & lye, instead of sodium stearate.
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    I’ve found that a high content of sodium stearate will result in a thick grease at very high temperatures. 90 grains of sodium stearate (98% pure) turns 1 tablespoon of polymerized castor oil (isolated from mineral oil after polymerization complete) into apple sauce at 300F. 20 & 40 grains are both more useable, but the resulting grease does not mix well with the bees wax. In order to get 40 grains of sodium stearate & 1 tablespoon of polymerized castor oil to dissolve into bees wax, I had to add 3 teaspoons of stearic acid (purity unknown). I hypothesize that the stearic acid dissolved the grease into the wax because it is also a wax & an ingredient of sodium stearate (like dissolves like) - maybe I’m wrong.
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    Thinking about the coagulated grease, heterogeneously mixed with the bees wax (it was actually 50% bees wax and 50% microcrystalline wax) made me wonder for a while. Then I wondered if I made my own soap out of bees wax and polymerized castor oil, if the resulting soap would allow for better mixture of the high soap content with the wax (because the soap is more similar to the ingredients I want to emulsify), and it did! Correlation is not causation...
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    Soap makers have a thing called super-fatting, where more fat is used than the lye can consume. I went very high in super-fatting, hoping to be able to make just one batch (failed, but super-fatting is still my friend here, as no lye should remain in lube).
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    Recipe: I polymerized castor oil in heavy mineral oil, then extracted 30 mL of the castor oil and 15 mL of the mineral oil (next time, won’t use the mineral oil after polymerization). 375 grains of bees wax. Separately, mixed 4.2 grains of lye and 20 mL of water (any less water, and there’s nothing to stir). After the 15-ish minutes, I mixed the lye, oil, and bees wax. I placed the mixture into a toaster oven and stirred intermittently while getting the wax to melt (next time, melt wax first). After about an hour, the chemical reaction was obviously underway and it was getting late, but the mixture was not homogeneous. 12 hours later, I boiled the water out (next time, salt out glycerin and air dry for a few months) briefly getting up to 300F (outside & alone, so no remaining lye fumes could harm the family). When the water was gone (hopefully, the glycerin boiled out too), the 250-300F wax would solidify while dripping from my stirring spoon - too far. So I mixed 100 grains of this extremely super-fatted soap with 320 grains of a Felix & Wilgen blend (50% FWFL & 50% FWWFL) - resulting in a lube that drips out of a square lube groove at 200F. FWWFL drips out around 145F, and my commercial benchmark (Hunter’s Supply cast .452 DIA 255 grain LSWC with lube) drips out at 180F. Now, I just gotta see what this does to my barrel before making a higher quality batch.
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    Note: observing the temperature required for lube to flow out of a bullet’s lube grooves has shown me that the lube can be liquid and stay in the grooves. I think the soap helps to hold the grease together after the wax has melted, rather than actually elevate the melt temperature (maybe both occur).

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I made a bees wax & castor oil soap (no super-fat), then salted out the glycerin, then washed out the salt. The impact on temperature range of Felix lube was nothing. When I did not salt out, I observed a significant increase in the melting temperature, but not an increase in the gelling temperature. In other words, the lube is translucent while still solid & heated.
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    Castor oil has triglycerides, but I have not yet found indications that bees wax has any glycerin/glycerides. I want to know why the lube containing bees wax soap will solidify before turning opaque, because I suspect that indicates an increase in useful temperature range (and I’m curious). So my plan now is to saponify the bees wax only (hopefully eliminates all glycerin concerns), but I have to research that to make sure I don’t get any undesireable surprises in loaded rounds.
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    My original hypothesis was that maximal temperature range in grease might require saponifying the same oils as will be mixed with the soap. However, I doubt this correctly explains what I’ve observed so far.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I have found a way to saponify beeswax only, so that the melting point of FWFL can be anywhere between the melting point of beeswax, and 220F. My mixture drips out of lube grooves at 205F. The caveat, is that stearic acid does not work, so don’t try this with the Wilgen versions. Seems that the Wilgen version is best for winter. Anyways, here’s my raw notes taken while making this stuff.
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    April 13 soap
    8 oz beeswax
    12 grams lye for 23% superfat
    Just enough water to be able to stir the lye... 36 grams of water... about 0.5 oz was spilled.
    Drip / titrate lye solution slowly into molten beeswax, keeping below 170F.
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    Slowly drip half a teaspoon of lye solution into the molten wax, then stir the wax. Maintain a temperature between 150-180F. Repeat until the wax-soap forms a hard ball.
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    Wait 2 days minimum for the reaction to complete.
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    Dissolve the beeswax soap into molten beeswax, to cause any trace amounts of lye to react and be consumed. 4 parts soap to 1 part wax, since the soap has such a high melting temperature. Melt both, and pour in the wax. Stir, and heat to liquid temperature again quickly. Careful not to burn anything.
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    April 18 - Felix Brown
    Note: Should have used 22 mL of Castor oil & mineral oil, not 14. Ratio of the two oils depends on ratio of extraction.
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    100 grains beeswax soap, made on April 13.
    2 mL Mineral Oil... just enough to wet the soap.
    Slowly sprinkle in 20 grains of beeswax flakes
    Mash the wax & soap paste together.
    Slowly add another 5 mL Mineral Oil.
    Melt in 10 grains of sodium stearate
    Slowly drip in 7 mL of polymerized castor oil. Drips will cause the mixture to gel, so remelt while dripping.
    Slowly melt in 743.8 grains of beeswax. Melt hot to keep soap liquid.
    12 grains of carnauba wax.
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    May not need Sodium stearate nor carnauba wax.
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    Mineral oil is a polar solvent, and helps to dissolve beeswax soap. Also, can get very hot without damaging key lubricant.
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    Hopefully, this will be an additive to standard Felix lube, where lower temperatures do less damage to ingredients.
    *
    ***
    *
    April 30 FWFL
    30 mL (2 tblsp) polymerized castor & mineral oil
    10 grains sodium stearate
    Heat until sodium stearate melts. Heat to light smoking, stir and cool. Then heat to med-hi smoking, stir and cool. Then quickly heat to 530F, stir and cool.
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    23.2 grains Carnauba wax
    991.7 grains of bees wax.
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    The soap will precipitate as the oil cools, so slowly add waxes while still hot enough that precipitation is not visible.
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    Allow to cool below 200F, but while everything stays liquid add 1 tsp lanolin.
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    Only very slight precipitated soap particles can be seen with the liquid lube in a clear cup.
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    Lube ran out of bullet grooves between 150-160F. When mixed 50/50 with Felix Brown, lube ran out of bullet grooves at 210F (good at 205F).
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    Need to double the portion of Lanolin, to keep the lube in bullet grooves after cookie cutting with 50/50 FWFL / Felix Brown.
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    Next step is to determine the best lye:beeswax ratio. I spilled some when making the soap above. Next time, make too much lye/water solution, record initial weight, slowly titrate solution into melted beeswax while stirring, and then stop when all melted wax is a solid ball. Measure remaining lye/water solution.
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    Keep rolling the beeswax soap into a ball as it solidifies, because it is very hard to clean off the crock pot.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
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    When it works, there is a firm & translucent gel that exists between the liquid & solid states. The boolit standing on the gel here is 225gr x .455”.

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  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2016
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    298
    Thanks for sharing your notes, it's great to see people sharing raw experimental data.
    There are a few things I could use clarification on. In your first post "12 hours later, I boiled the water out (next time, salt out glycerin and air dry for a few months)"How are you able to boil the water out without degrading the beeswax? I was under the impression beeswax decomposed just below boiling water temperature.
    Further, what do you mean by "salting out" the glycerin? I'm assuming you're extracting the salts you created during the addition of lye with water, but wouldn't that equally readily wash out all of the soaps you're working so hard to create?

    And how is it you're confident your lube is drying out while sitting instead of absorbing more water?


    Just trying to understand the techniques involved and the thoughts behind them.

    Also "Mineral oil is a polar solvent and helps to dissolves beeswax soap".
    Is it though? I thought it was mainly medium chain alkanes and cycloalkanes. How polar is beeswax really, anyone have data on it's actual solubility in various solvents?

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
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    Update:
    20 mL mineral oil
    10 mL castor oil
    Heat for 30 minutes

    Extract as much mineral oil as possible, without taking any castor oil.

    15 grains sodium stearate
    300 grains bees wax soap
    1 oz microcrystalline wax (185F melt)
    Half of the extracted mineral oil from above (other half was discarded).
    Heat & stir until soaps are dissolved. Microcrystalline wax and mineral oil will not break down under this high heat like bees wax and castor oil will.
    This foamed up a bit.

    Cool and add 0.2 oz bees wax

    Add all castor oil.

    Add 50 grains Carnauba wax.

    Slowly add 2.8 oz beeswax, melting small amounts before if ~0.2 oz at a time. Stir and smash the foam and soap particles with each addition of beeswax.

    Result: lube stays in the bullet’s lube groove at >205 degrees F.
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    Mix with FWFL as an additive (3 parts FWFL to 5 parts Felix Brown). Seems like the mixture needs to be heated a few times for the melt temperature to stabilize. This mix ratio may change as I learn how heat treating affects melt temperature.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Feb 2021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    Thanks for sharing your notes, it's great to see people sharing raw experimental data.
    There are a few things I could use clarification on. In your first post "12 hours later, I boiled the water out (next time, salt out glycerin and air dry for a few months)"How are you able to boil the water out without degrading the beeswax? I was under the impression beeswax decomposed just below boiling water temperature.
    Further, what do you mean by "salting out" the glycerin? I'm assuming you're extracting the salts you created during the addition of lye with water, but wouldn't that equally readily wash out all of the soaps you're working so hard to create?

    And how is it you're confident your lube is drying out while sitting instead of absorbing more water?


    Just trying to understand the techniques involved and the thoughts behind them.
    I’ll just say that everything I did before saponification of beeswax alone was a failure. Also, “salting out” is dissolving powdered fat based soap in hot salt water to cause the glycerin to dissolve into the water while the soap separates out and floats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peregrine View Post
    Also "Mineral oil is a polar solvent and helps to dissolves beeswax soap".
    Is it though? I thought it was mainly medium chain alkanes and cycloalkanes. How polar is beeswax really, anyone have data on it's actual solubility in various solvents?
    I found that on a chemistry website, and had good results with it. The model may (or may not) be wrong, but it is still helpful.

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