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Thread: COAL for the 44 magnum

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    COAL for the 44 magnum

    Hi All,
    I just got done casting some beautiful boolits for the 44 magnum. I’m using an NOE mould # 434-234-RF-BR2, does anyone have a good COAL for that boolit? They are gonna be shot out of an 1894 Marlin.
    Thanks ,
    Paul
    People would rather beleave a lie than the truth
    David Crockett

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Whatever it winds up with the case mouth at the center of the crimp groove , that bullet sets your OAL

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I have been reloading 44 Magnums and 44 Specials since '87 and have always seated bullets to the crimp groove or cannalure and disregarded book OAL (also my 38/357 Magnums since '69). IIRC I figgered the bullet designer knew what he was doing when he located the crimp groove and this has worked quite well for 4, 38/357 Magnums and 5, 44 Magnums...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The answer in this case is seat it to the crimp groove, but that isn't always the case... at least for Marlins.

    I made the mistake of buying my first .44 mould for my new Marlin 1894 about 30 years ago. What boolit did I pick you ask? Well of course the famed Keith designed Lyman 429421 which according to about everyone is the very best boolit for .44 mag. Except that doesn't apply to Marlin 1894's in general and mine in particular! Apparently some feed SWC's okay.

    The 429421 has a long nose to crimp groove dimension putting it over the max. OAL for .44 mag. Marlin 1894's can be picky about not only the OAL but also the nose shape. My Marlin had both issues.

    The 429421 fedd but not reliably and often jammed... mostly wouldn't enter the chamber but sometimes jammed leaving the mag tube then requiring removing the lever. I wound up seating so I could crimp over the front driving band to get it to feed reasonably but still not 100%. At least then it didn't jam up on the carrier leaving the mag tube.

    I wound up modifying both the cartridge stop and carrier to allow feeding of longer than SAAMI spec ammunition and the SWC nose that just wouldn't feed into the chamber properly. A better solution is use RF boolits designs with correct nose length and shape.

    OAL for .44 mag. is listed at 1.61". With case length of 1.285" that leaves you 0.325" outside the case mouth.

    With the NOE 434-234-RF-BR2 the nose is only 0.270" from case mouth so lots of room. You should be good to go.

    Longbow

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Load 2 with a specific length - chamber and eject them. If they work ... that’s the COAL
    Regards
    John

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    It doesn't sound to me like your lever gun's SWC feeding problem is OAL generated. Suggest you try another bullet style, like a round nose.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

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    In my case it was both length and shape.

    The 429421 seated to the crimp groove often jammed leaving the mag tube locking up the carrier.

    As for shape, the loaded rounds that fed tipped up on the carrier so that the flat nose wouldn't enter the chamber. A round nose definitely helps there. The Mihec 434640 feeds just fine but neither the 429421 or the H&G #503, both SWC's, would feed reliably.

    Filing the cartridge stop allowed the longer COAL to feed out of the mag tube okay but the SWC's still wouldn't enter the chamber reliably due to meplat or shoulder catching the breech face. I had to modify the carrier to lower the nose of the boolits. Possibly Randy's chamber mouth radius trick would have solved it.

    Longbow

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master

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    44 Magnum ... or any straight walled revolver cartridge ... seat so you can put a roll crimp into the boolits crimp groove ...Book COL be hanged ... The Crimp Groove determines COL in this case .

    If you are trying to load for a lever action rifle ... you may need a different boolit if it will not feed properly .
    Lever action rifles need a flat point and crimped boolit ... if the crimp groove is in the wrong place , making OAL too short/long then there isn't much you can do .

    Gary
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I would suggest you get boolits that do not exceed 1.610". 429421 works great in my Super Blackhawk but not at all in my Marlin. In fact my Marlin made several trips to a gunsmith and at least one trip back to Marlin before I would feed and eject factory bullets. I did acquire some round nosed boolits that I could load to 1.610". Don't know who made them and the gun store on the sticker has long since closed. Molds and these boolits do exist. Good luck hunting. If you find them please let everyone here know. I only had 100 and once they are shot, they are gone with no replacements in sight.
    Last edited by Duckiller; 03-25-2021 at 09:29 PM.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

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    There are lots of boolit moulds that resulkt in acceptable COAL for Marlins but the 429421 is not one of them. It works fine in revolvers bit not so much in Marlins. Not sure about other .44 rifles.

    The NOE #434-234-RF-BR2 in the 1st post will be just fine seated to crimp groove. It is well under max. COAL.

    Longbow

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    The answer in this case is seat it to the crimp groove, but that isn't always the case... at least for Marlins.

    I made the mistake of buying my first .44 mould for my new Marlin 1894 about 30 years ago. What boolit did I pick you ask? Well of course the famed Keith designed Lyman 429421 which according to about everyone is the very best boolit for .44 mag. Except that doesn't apply to Marlin 1894's in general and mine in particular! Apparently some feed SWC's okay.

    The 429421 has a long nose to crimp groove dimension putting it over the max. OAL for .44 mag. Marlin 1894's can be picky about not only the OAL but also the nose shape. My Marlin had both issues.

    The 429421 fedd but not reliably and often jammed... mostly wouldn't enter the chamber but sometimes jammed leaving the mag tube then requiring removing the lever. I wound up seating so I could crimp over the front driving band to get it to feed reasonably but still not 100%. At least then it didn't jam up on the carrier leaving the mag tube.

    I wound up modifying both the cartridge stop and carrier to allow feeding of longer than SAAMI spec ammunition and the SWC nose that just wouldn't feed into the chamber properly. A better solution is use RF boolits designs with correct nose length and shape.

    OAL for .44 mag. is listed at 1.61". With case length of 1.285" that leaves you 0.325" outside the case mouth.

    With the NOE 434-234-RF-BR2 the nose is only 0.270" from case mouth so lots of room. You should be good to go.

    Longbow
    Surely you have read my instructions on "How to Chamfer the Chamber Mouth" on your 1894. (sticky on the Leverguns forum.) That will fix the hanging up while feeding problem for good. The new Ruger Marlins are supposed to have this mod integrated into the build.

    Typically they say the Max OAL is 1.595, however my 1894 CB will feed cartridges as long as 1.680. I use .429421 and 429244 exclusively in my gun and they are crimped in the crimp groove.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Randy:

    Yes, I have seen your sticky. I had my issues before you posted that. However, not sure it would have solved my problems as I had two issues:

    - the 429421 seated to crimp groove barely fed out of the mag tube most of the time and sometimes didn't so jammed up the carrier
    - the loaded round on the carrier tipped up so much that the meplat butted up against the breech face... not just a bit, a lot!

    Apparently some 1894's are pickier than others and it may come down to tolerances. It doesn't take much to throw timing off and doesn't take much to have the carrier sit just a bit high. I never had any trouble with factory rounds or any RNFP cast bullets but the SWC's like the 429421 and H&G #503 would not feed reliably through my gun from leaving mag tube to entering chamber.

    Why not just change boolit style you ask? Well, Dale53 had contacted me to help design and 3D the H&G #503 so donated the honcho's mould to me. In fact I wound up with a 5 cavity aluminum mould and later a 2 cavity brass HP mould which was very generous of him! I wanted to be able to shoot those boolits out of my Marlin so modified it to handle them. Smart? Maybe not, but I haven't been accused of being terribly smart!

    Not saying chamfering the chamber mouth wouldn't have helped some, it might have but the combination of long plus large meplat caused no end of grief. I wound up filing the carrier to change the angle of the cartridge so it didn't tip so high and that worked. Like I said, some guns seem to be pickier than others. The mod to allow longer COAL was easy, just file the cartridge stop. I wish I had known that before! That mod stopped the carrier jamming.

    Anyway, this has nothing to do with the OP. His boolit choice should feed just tine. It has the right shape and has short enough nose not to be an issue.

    Longbow

  13. #13
    Boolit Master 44magLeo's Avatar
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    The 429421 is a great boolit. Elmer Keith designed it for 44 Special revolers. He wanted something better than factory that gave great accuracy at longer ranges. He and others of the time hot rodded the Special to near Mag levels. It has the long nose so it can be seated out to fill the chambers of common revolvers back then. When the 44 Mag came out they found the boolit works great in that.
    Ranch Dog designed a 265 gr RFN boolit secifically for Marlin lever guns. It throws a larger dimeter boolet to better match the throats and bore diameters. Around .423 or .433 works well, most revolvers work at .430 or so. It is a tumble lube design so it'seasy and cheap to lube. Whatever tumble lube you use works very well at the velocities of the 44Mag rifles. It was designed so when seated to firmly crimp into the grimp groove the COAL was just right for the Marlins. This and the RFN cured feeding issues.
    Ranch dog was getting molds made by Lee. He don't no more, It is a popular boolit so NOE makes molds for it now. I amagine other costum or semi custom mold makers havce a version too. Saeco makes a close boolit that has conventional lube grooves in several weights.
    In straight walled pistol cases most bullets have acrimp groove. Seating to crimp in this groove with jacketed usuall gives you a COAL at book length. Lead bullets cast or swaged don't always match book Sammi length. If you have a Lyman book the COAL's listed for cast boolits is inline with the boolit's length and shape. This COAL's give good results in most guns.
    In the one fellows case where he was crimping over the shoulder, perhaps you could use a Special case and seat to crimp in the groove with a bit of powder charge adjustment and get a round that feeds and gives the same velocity, Maybe trim back Mag cases for the same result.
    Leo

  14. #14
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    Yeah it would have solved your chambering issue. The sharp edge on the chamber mouth always gouges into the bullet nose and in fact will shave lead off round nosed boolits as well. Remington was well aware of this mod and actually did it to some runs of these guns. I have seen .357's with a chamfer on the chamber mouth. I think someone posted a pic of one in the Leverguns Forum.

    The other problem is generally an OAL problem which can be solved by moving the stop on the carrier back.

    I figured this out around 2005 when I got my gun and found it wouldn't chamber anything other than round nosed boolits.

    Ruger is incorporating this mod into their .357, .44 and .45 barrels, and they called me to ask about it and what it did and how to fix it.

    The mod gets integrated into the chambering reamer, and it consists of a .050 radius at the junction of the chamber and rim. This is where the .060 extractor groove is on the case, so there is no possible issue with case failure. It should have been done 40 years ago, as the problem is not new!

    It's not a bad thing to do on the .45-70's as well and they will shave lead off the nose of the boolits. the OAL problems are pretty much Moot on the .45-70's as pretty much all boolits for them have the crimp groove in the same place in relation to the nose of the boolit. The RCBS .45-300,.45-405, and .45-500 boolits all have the same nose length, the bigger ones just have more driving bands.

    Randy
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  15. #15
    Boolit Mold
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    W.R. Buchanan, you mentioned a sticky about chamfering the chamber mouth. Where is that? I'm thinking this might solve the feed issue I have with my R92.


    Never mind, found it
    Last edited by Jparr; 03-31-2021 at 10:16 AM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    I wish I had access to Randy's information 40 years ago when loading and casting for a Marlin 44 mag sure would have saved money and frustration looking for boolits that would work in it.

  17. #17
    Boolit Grand Master

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    To be honest Randy's idea of chamfering the chamber mouth should have been more obvious... at least to me. I often found gouges in my brass from scraping over the sharp edge (it was sharp!), again due to extreme tilt of the cartridge as it entered the chamber. You'd figure a guy seeing that might say "Whoa! That's not right!" but being a slow learner at times, I didn't address that issue but then my gun had several issues.

    Longbow

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
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    I'm going to try the chamfering idea on my R92 44 Mag, but I think it also might be a "Tilt" problem as Longbow described. How would one go about modifying the angle of the round as it enters the chamber?

  19. #19
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    WARNING--- don't buy Hornady once fired brass. they make short brass that only works with their bullets.

    I have a box of Hornady 357 brass that is way too short and useless to me (99.5% of what I shoot are my cast boolits)

    at least they are still worth $2 a pound at the scrap yard.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master

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    For me I removed the carrier and started filing it to change the angle of the loaded round. That worked but... I wound up "getting two through" the dreaded Marlin jam! So I got it to feed SWC's but produced a different problem by lowering the nose of the carrier too much. The lower nose doesn't stop cartridges coming in from the mag tube. DOH! I likely should have epoxied or soldered a shim to raise the head of the cartridge or lift the rim a bit. Easier to fix! Shims can be taken off.

    To solve the "getting two through" I wound up doing the "fix" for a peened carrier that results in a different Marlin jam. Apparently after a lot of use the carrier dropping onto the cam on the lever peens a groove in the carrier that throws timing off just enough to cause grief. That is a problem I didn't have. The fix is to install a new carrier and radius the sharp edge of the cam or glue or solder (I soldered) a piece of hacksaw blade to the bottom of the carrier to protect it and raise it a bit. All I needed is the raising a bit. It seems to feed okay now and isn't letting two through anymore but I have only run some dummy rounds through it to check. I have to load some .44's up and get it to the range for a good work out.

    I mention all this because while I was looking at one problem, and solved it, I introduced a whole new problem to my gun.

    So, for Jparr I'll suggest taking a close look at the tilt (mine was bad!) and the chamber mouth to see how much boolit nose is hanging up. If not much then Randy's chamfering trick may fix it and won't hurt regardless... just don't put a really large chamfer on the chamber mouth! If the chamfer doesn't help or doesn't solve it totally then maybe look at altering the carrier but before doing that check out a carrier price and do an internet search to make sure you don't follow in my footsteps by introducing a new problem.

    I knew I didn't have a problem with RNFP designs... at least those I had anyway, but I was bent on getting SWC's to feed so I was my real problem. The gun didn't like SWC's but did like RNFP's so I should have just stuck with RNFP's and not done anything. We'll see shortly if I solved both the SWC feeding and low carrier nose. Who knows? I may have to buy a new carrier and start over!

    I am sure a gunsmith or some other dummy that has done what I did could have warned me!

    As they say though "Good judgement comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement!"

    Longbow

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check