Leading in Lipsey's Flattop .44 Special

[Horseman]

I am humbled by the offers of help and even free lead/lube to try. Larry & ABJ, you guys have given me a lot of hope that the solutions are simpler than I had feared. My lube sizer is warming up now with some White Label Carnauba Blue (since I had already ordered a bunch of that). The replacement sizer die retaining nut for the Lyman is in the mail but I'm hopeful I can nurse the current one through a dozen or so 240 Keith's sized to .431 which I will try with 7.0 of Unique. If I'm still leading, I'll get my order into White Label for some BAC.

[mdi]

Are you measuring the throat ID with the caliper's small ID jaws? This may be the reason the diameters appear so small. Unless the jaws have a sharp knife edge the "flats" on the jaw surface don't fit the entire inside radius and gives a smaller measurement...

Horseman,
I mixed up your thread with another 44 Magnum bullet size thread. My apologies! The other thread quoted .4285" throat diameter and I guess my old mind was thinking about that when I read your thread. Sorry...

[stubshaft]

I'm thinking that there is a slight restriction where the barrel is screwed in, there was on mine. A short session firelapping took care of that.

[cowboy4evr]

He said it's leading from the forcing cone forward . It sounds like a thread choke . Go to " LBT Molds " , scroll down and find where Veral sells soft lead slugs made for pushing down a barrel , checking for tight spots , rough spots etc . They come in a pack of 10 , if I remember correctly and are inexpensive . This is where I would begin . Forget about alloy hardness , lube etc till after this inspection is completed . I once had a 45 Colt in S&W that had a .006" choke at the junction where the barrel threaded onto the frame . After firelapping the barrel , the leading problem went away , the accuracy REALLY improved . Good Luck , Regards Paul

[rockrat]

What do your boolits measure as from the mould? If .432" or .433" perhaps you could pan lube a few and load them and try them out to see if a larger boolit might be the cure.

[mdi]

You might possibly have thread choke because of where the barrel screws into the frame. Might be slight, but still affect results. Happens often. I believe a bit of firelapping might help if there is any choke and possibly down by your sight. When I bought a pair of Vaqueros in 357 for cowboy shooting, I had leading, but not as bad as yours. I took JB compound to the barrels and lapped them a bit, maybe 30 strokes. At the end, it was a lot easier to run a patch down the bore and the leading quit.
Also, try your boolits at .432" first and see what happens.

When cleaning with a tight patch, I do detect some constriction at the front sight but surprisingly, none at the frame where the barrel threads in. I had planned to fire lap the gun but given the lack of thread constriction, I’m not sure that’s going to help

Apparently already considered and disregarded...

[Bazoo]

I can't feel a constriction with patch but can with a lead ball. I'd bet you have a light constriction.

You can use lead fishing sinkers in lieu of pure lead bullets to slug with.

You mentioned cutting the forcing cone, you can buy all you need from brownells for around 100 dollars. It ain't real hard, just scary cause it's unknown.

[DocSavage]

I've several Ruger revolvers both single and double action and had to fire lap them due to tight/rough spots. Worst was the Redhawks due to their very hard stainless steel barrels.

[Horseman]

Update - White Label BAC is on the way. Regardless of other changes, I believe that either their Carnauba Blue or BAC are essential changes to my arsenal when casting for these sub-1,000 fps loads. The stuff I've been using for my high-pressure hunting loads is clearly too hard, besides being a pain to use. For those that asked/suggested, I also tried a dozen loads with 7.0 Unique under as-cast .4330" generously hand-lubed with Carnauba Blue and results were no better. I think those of you recommending fire lapping are probably on the right track. I'm not discounting the suggestions of a softer alloy, but given my supply of COWW and other feedback on my alloy being OK, I want to exhaust all avenues toward getting a WW + Tin alloy to work before I go there. I've got the supplies to fire-lap so will try throwing 24-30 properly treated Beartooth fire lapping bullets down the bore and see if things start to improve.

[ABJ]

Horseman, I agree with your current thinking although if it were mine I would like to slug the barrel again paying close attention when you get down to the threads to feel any restriction. If none then I would look under a 10x glass or printer's loop at the forcing cone. Same solution for both problems just less lapping bullets if it is just a rough forcing cone. Or a forcing cone reamer from Brownells.
Another poster said he can't feel a restriction with a patch and neither can I. If you have a pure lead muzzleloading round ball around .454 or .457 is about perfect drove in the muzzle and and push with a short piece of dowel rod. once it clears the muzzle about an inch or so you should be able to push the dowel rod with hand pressure.
Keep us posted,
Tony

[onelight]

I can feel them with a patch but you need a clean barrel and a tight fitting patch on a jag you can definitely feel them better , slugging than with a patch . If you can feel it with the patch you know you have some restriction if you don't feel it with a patch , you may still have some

[Horseman]

Well, I slugged the bore as several suggested and sure enough, tight at the front sight, easy trip down the bore, and very tight through the threads (relative to the rest of the bore). I couldn't believe the difference - even after knowing it was there I tried the tight patch again and the restriction was barely detectable. Thanks to all of you that have been encouraging me to slug it.

It may be next week before I have time to fire lap but I'll be sure to update with the results.

[cowboy4evr]

Using a tight fitting patch checking for rough spots , constrictions in a barrel is meaningless . It takes a soft lead slug , trust me on this . Regards Paul

[onelight]

Using a tight fitting patch checking for rough spots , constrictions in a barrel is meaningless . It takes a soft lead slug , trust me on this . Regards Paul

I don't find it meaningless , for me it's a strong hint I need to slug it , and it's part of cleaning at my house it does not hurt to pay attention to the feedback you get . You can also feel a bulge you can't see with a tight patch and jag another hint you need further investigation and if the bore is normally smooth when clean you can feel leading that is hard to see without a bore scope pay attention when cleaning you can find things that are not right

[ddixie884]

I'm interested.......

[Horseman]

Update - I prepared 24 fire lapping loads - Beartooth lapping bullets and their lapping compound. If anyone has a link to a video on preparing lapping bullets I'd love to see it. I did my best to follow Marshall's instructions - I rolled mine for about 60-90 seconds each between steel plates with moderate pressure. After that, I couldn't see them getting any darker. I then buttered the lube groove with compound and seated the bullets to where the bearing surfaces were all inside the case, just the ogive protruding. Very tedious and time consuming. I settled on two grains of Trail Boss, hoping to get in the 450 fps range. I had four or five bullets stick which were easily driven back down and out with a wooden dowel. I'll probably bump my charge to 2.2 to avoid that hassle in the future.

I cleaned the bore and cylinder thoroughly after every six shots. I also lightly oiled the barrel after cleaning and pushed the slug I used for slugging the bore through the barrel. I could tell I was making progress as the constrictions felt less severe after each 6 shots but it still remains at both ends of the barrel. As a test, I tried 12 rounds of COWW loads (7.0 Unique under 250 Keith) at .431 lubed with White Label BAC. I’m still getting about the same amount of leading in the first inch as when I started but I will say it is much easier to remove now. I will try another 12-24 lapping loads and hopefully start to see the leading subside. If anyone sees an issue with my lapping process, I’d appreciate hearing from you. Also curious what others have experienced in terms of number of loads required to remove the constriction in a Ruger.

[onelight]

My SS 45 convertible got 60 rounds of lapping and still has a little restriction but it is much better . That took all day cleaning every six rounds and checking it. It probably needs another 20 or 30.
I have not lapped a blued barrel but have heard they don't take as many rounds to get cleaned up.

[Char-Gar]

When this kind of thread comes up, my mind always goes toward expectations. When folks who shoot cast bullets say "no leading" they are not talking about "no leading" as in shooting jacketed bullets. There is always some kind of powder trash, lube and lead wash left in the barrel. This stuff cleans out pretty easy and is just part of the game. Now if the accuracy goes south due to the crap in the barrel before a hundred rounds, then you have leading and time to look for a fix. Leading vs. no leading is determined by the target and not looking down the barrel. You will go nuts trying to get a lead alloy bullet leave a barrel as clean as a jacketed bullet.

[Alferd Packer]

I would try a much softer lead mix and a softer lube.
I believe the lube which gets sized along with the bullets is just hitching a ride along with the bullet and does no lubing atall.
A softer bullet would obturate and squeeze out some lube on the way thru.
Also helps to run a lightly lubed patch back and forth in the bore so you are not starting with a dry bore.
I always lube for lead.
Can't hurt.
It works for me.
I would also run a couple hundred jacketed bullets down the bore too, just to knock off any rough edges.
Then clean real good and proceed with the lead loads.

[Horseman]

Char-Gar - good points and appreciate the suggestions. The leading I'm experiencing here is significant - as in requiring the chore-boy on a mop treatment where slivers and chunks of lead come out. It's all at the threads so I think I'm on the right track with lapping. I don't think I've mentioned accuracy - it's pretty bad, averaging about 5" at 25 yds. I'm not a great shot but based on what I'm able to do with my other revolvers on the bags, I'm confident there's a lot of room for improvement with this gun. Alferd - others have mentioned the softer alloy and I'm not ignoring that advice, but I want to limit how many things I change at once. I'll give that a try once I'm satisfied that I've removed most of the constriction. Based on all the feedback on this board, I'm pretty sure I'm in a good spot with the BAC lube. It is pretty soft and what a pleasure to work with after years of using the hard stuff. All the good reviews on White Label (the lube and the people) were warranted IMO.