Leading in Lipsey's Flattop .44 Special

[Horseman]

I have a Lipsey’s (Ruger) .44 Special Flattop and I’m having quite a time trying to solve my leading issues. The gun slugs at .4295 and cylinder throats are a uniform .432. I’ve tried both the Lyman 429421 sized to .430 and .431 (the .431 requiring just a slight push to pass through the throats) and Accurate Molds’ AM432250K sized to .431. Two alloys, one is straight COWW and the other consisting of 10 lbs COWW, 1 lb Linotype, and 2 oz tin. I’ve tried several loads using Unique, Universal Clays, and Titegroup. I have not tried 2400 yet as I’m not looking for hunting loads for this gun, just casual shooting. Loads ranged from mild to about as much as I want for range fun. 6.8 of Unique “feels” about where I want to be and I felt should be enough to provide sufficient obturation with my alloys. Everything I have tried has left significant lead deposits in the barrel from the throat forward about 1-2”. I have to use a piece of copper chore boy over a mop with solvent to scrub it out. When cleaning with a tight patch, I do detect some constriction at the front sight but surprisingly, none at the frame where the barrel threads in. I had planned to fire lap the gun but given the lack of thread constriction, I’m not sure that’s going to help me. For lube, I'm using Thompson's Blue Angel but just received some White Label Carnauba Blue I'm going to try as soon as the replacement die retention nut shows up for my Lyman lube sizer (my other exercise in frustration).

My next step is to have the forcing cone re-cut and polished but there’s an 18-month wait at my local smith who I trust to do the job right. I’m hoping maybe someone here, possibly another flattop owner has encountered and dealt with this issue and might have a suggestion for something else to try while I wait for the call from my gunsmith.

Thanks in advance!

[rockrat]

You might possibly have thread choke because of where the barrel screws into the frame. Might be slight, but still affect results. Happens often. I believe a bit of firelapping might help if there is any choke and possibly down by your sight. When I bought a pair of Vaqueros in 357 for cowboy shooting, I had leading, but not as bad as yours. I took JB compound to the barrels and lapped them a bit, maybe 30 strokes. At the end, it was a lot easier to run a patch down the bore and the leading quit.
Also, try your boolits at .432" first and see what happens.

[onelight]

My 45 flattop did have frame restriction and fire lapping did help it a lot and left the bore very smooth mine is stainless and I think a shot about 60 lapping rounds cleaning every 6 took all day and I may have stopped a little early but it is much better.
My 44 special flat top has a little restriction but not near as much . But eventually I will fire lap it also it makes the bore really slick.

[green mountain boy]

i cant help much, but perhaps use a softer lead, it might fill out better. i have used mostly lees alox lube thinned way down....but that is in a 10" contender with 44 special loads at 812 fps..it works well in it.

[Bazoo]

Brass sizing your bullets down below bore diameter?

[DougGuy]

Too hard of an alloy I bet. 50/50+2% (50% COWW + 50% soft lead + 2% tin) is really really good in Ruger handgun rifling, regardless of caliber it just works. Sounds like your gun is exceptional in it's dimensions, no reason for leading, those Lipseys guns are the pick of the litter. I would try softer alloy, soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail, and soft lube, sized for a light drag fit in the throats.

[gwpercle]

If there is no restriction ... Your alloy is too hard . Go with a 50-50 mix of COWW and Soft lead and don't water drop them . Use a good soft lube like a Lithium - Beeswax or Alox - Beeswax .
Softer boolit , softer lube and try my pet 429421 44 special load of 6.5 grains Unique .
Believe it or not ... a soft lube is very important and I've never had leading with Lithi-Bee lube in handgun loads .
If you are getting leading from the forcing cone forward ... that sounds like a restriction at the frame . You can get a kit and Fire-Lap it yourself .
Lyman sizer ... did you cross thread the retaining nut ? ... be very careful and order two replacements as they are super easy to bugger up .
Gary

[376Steyr]

+1 on a much softer alloy and soft lube. I wasted a lot of money and time shooting undersized, rock-hard commercial-cast bullets, which seemed to be lubed with Crayola crayons, over 7.5 grains of Unique in my S&W 44 Special. I got lots of leading and pathetic accuracy. My only excuse is I didn't know any better. You are on the right track with matching bullet size to throats. I wish somebody had told me that 30 years ago. You might want to try some White Label "50/50" or "2500+" lube.
Pulling a loaded round to see if the brass is sizing down your bullet is a good idea. Does your loaded round look like a python swallowing a pig? Modern loading dies are made to enthusiastically grip .429 jacketed bullets. That .431 bullet may be a lot skinnier after being shoved into a tight brass case.

[Horseman]

Great feedback and ideas everyone, I really appreciate it. I have eight 5-gallon pails of COWW but no soft lead so I'll have to hunt some down. I was hoping pure COWW would be soft enough as the economies are great. I just received 10 sticks of Carnauba Blue so I'll give it a try and order something softer as a next step if needed. I'm not getting the "pig in a python" appearance (great analogy by the way) but I'm sure my crimp is way heavier than needed. I'm accustomed to a heavy crimp on my .45 Colt Bisley hunting loads running hot on H-110 but didn't think about the adverse affect of using that crimp on these loads. I'll try a light crimp and see what that does for me.

Again, thank you to all who took the time to reply.

[onelight]

If the bullet has a crimp groove I put a good crimp on it but if your neck expander does not bring the case within .002 of bullet diameter you might want a larger expander particularly with soft bullets .
But I would try them with what you have first you may not need the oversize expander.

[Horseman]

A couple updates and answers to questions that have been asked. I did try simply not crimping to see if my heavy crimp was contributing. Not surprisingly, it made no difference. Still heavy leading after only 8 shots. I am loading with a Dillon RL550B so my expander is Dillon’s standard .44 expander/powder die funnel. My measurement of the expander (using a digital dial caliper – don’t have a micrometer) shows .4260”. My bullets “as-cast” with COWW alloy are .4325”. Sized bullets are .4310”, and after loading and crimping in the crimp groove (Keith-style 250 grain bullet), an inertia-pulled bullet still measures .4310”. As near as I can tell, all my measurements are about right where they should be. The bullets are bulging the case ever so slightly (not surprising with the .4260 expander) but it does not appear the bullets are being sized by the case. As several have noted, my issues is likely too hard of a bullet. I found some ingots of unknown alloy that appear to be very soft so I will experiment with a 50/50 mix with my COWW plus a bit of tin. I also discovered a 30-lb box of stained glass lead scraps that were given to me years ago. These appear to be pretty soft so I may try that as well. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone who has used the lead used by stained glass folks – perhaps it’s a “known” alloy.

[mdi]

Are you measuring the throat ID with the caliper's small ID jaws? This may be the reason the diameters appear so small. Unless the jaws have a sharp knife edge the "flats" on the jaw surface don't fit the entire inside radius and gives a smaller measurement...

[Bazoo]

When you measure your bullets, especially a pulled bullet, how are you positioning the calipers? Ive seen folk measure lengthwise. That will not tell you anything. It's the rear driving band that will get sized down, and the middle band will remain the same size.

Nothing wrong with using calipers provided you have a feel for them. My mic only confirmed that my calipers and feel for them are correct. I use the mic occasionally but the calipers are sufficient for most things.

[Horseman]

I'm using the larger flats on the calipers and taking my bullet measurement at the rear driving band. On the throats, I use the tips of the inside measurement part of the caliper and take a number of measurements to get an average toward the top end which I assume to be the actual diameter. For this particular gun, I had sent it to a smith for some other work and he slugged the bore and opened the throats slightly for a good match with a couple sample bullets I sent (they hang up toward the rear driving band but are easily pushed through). He provided the measurements I quoted above (.4295 bore and .432 throats).

[Larry Gibson]

A couple updates and answers to questions that have been asked. I did try simply not crimping to see if my heavy crimp was contributing. Not surprisingly, it made no difference. Still heavy leading after only 8 shots. I am loading with a Dillon RL550B so my expander is Dillon’s standard .44 expander/powder die funnel. My measurement of the expander (using a digital dial caliper – don’t have a micrometer) shows .4260”. My bullets “as-cast” with COWW alloy are .4325”. Sized bullets are .4310”, and after loading and crimping in the crimp groove (Keith-style 250 grain bullet), an inertia-pulled bullet still measures .4310”. As near as I can tell, all my measurements are about right where they should be. The bullets are bulging the case ever so slightly (not surprising with the .4260 expander) but it does not appear the bullets are being sized by the case. As several have noted, my issues is likely too hard of a bullet. I found some ingots of unknown alloy that appear to be very soft so I will experiment with a 50/50 mix with my COWW plus a bit of tin. I also discovered a 30-lb box of stained glass lead scraps that were given to me years ago. These appear to be pretty soft so I may try that as well. I’d appreciate hearing from anyone who has used the lead used by stained glass folks – perhaps it’s a “known” alloy.

Horseman

All that indicates the problem is not where you are looking.

Add 2% tin to your COWWs. That alloy will cast much better bullets and will prevent "antimonal wash" which is many times confused with "leading".

Sell or trade the lubes you are using, as that's really where the problem is, for some White label NRA 50/50, 2500+ or BAC. I've used all three lubes on thousands of 44 magnum loads (in 44 SPL power up through full magnum loads) using 429421s and 44-250-KTs along with commercial "hard" cast of numerous manufacturer. I've used those lubes on bullets sized .429 up through .431 and have never had "leading" in a multitude of revolvers, rifles and single shots.

Sometimes on this and other forums we over think the problem and get so wrapped around the axle we miss the real problem and it's solution.

[oldhenry]

+1 on the BAC

[white eagle]

have you thought of powder coating I have the same gun and pc
all my boolits never have any lead build up like I did when I used
plain old lube no matter what kind I tried I always got leading
give it a try

[gwpercle]

The stained glass lead pieces are called Lead Came ...and I have no idea why but the stuff is about as pure a soft lead as you can get . Excellant source of soft lead . Obtain all you can, I got some from a stained glass shop and use it with clip on wheel weights 50 / 50 .

Is there a constriction at the frame / forcing cone area ... where the barrel screws in ?
That will cause you a leading problem .
Gary

[ABJ]

Horseman, I took your alloy #'s and plugged into the alloy calculator.
The calculator list coww as .3% tin and 2.6% antimony so that is the first variable as well as the lino, but it don't matter that much for this discussion. Using your numbers of 10 lbs coww, 1 lb of lino and 2oz or .125 lbs of tin, your alloy should be
94.6 lead
1.75 tin
3.42 antimony
Based on experience I do not consider that too hard for 44 special unless your velocity and pressure are so low as to not bump up a 431 into a 432 cylinder. That is the first thing I would consider and if possible size to 432 or load "as cast" if not larger than 432.
The lubes Larry cites are all good, my fav of his list is the BAC. I have used the carnuba blue and it's okay but I think carnuba red or BAC is better.
I have two ruger 44's, one Lipsey's flat top special and a redhawk 44 mag. Both have 432 cylinders. Both will lead like crazy with 430 boolits. The mag will stop leading with 430's when the pressure gets high enough. With Unique in the mag case it takes 9.5 grains to bump up and seal. I never tried 430 in the special because I didn't want to run high pressure loads.
If I use 432 boolits and any good lube I can download to 750ish fps with no leading in both guns. Both of mine are blued not stainless. I think your alloy is fine although I prefer closer to 2% on the tin but I wouldn't scrap the alloy you have just shoot it. I think its a boolit size problem=1 maybe a lube problem=2. solve those two things first, "one at a time and not both at the same time" so you will know cause and effect of each change. Keep us posted, we all learn from our own experiences as well as our fellow members.
Tony

[Bazoo]

You want to try some BAC lube, message me and I'll send you a couple sticks I have extra.