Barrel vise bushing?

[ronniet]

I have a very nice barrel vise that I made about 20 years ago.
I have gotten by with an old set of B-Square aluminum bushings and thin lead shims that an old gunsmith friend of mine gave me and I have just really used them up and need to make some new ones and need some tips on how to make them.
My "hole in the vise when closed is true at 1.400 I.D.
I have a "stalk of aluminum tube that is 1.500 o.d. with about a 1/2" hole in it.
I first want to make a bushing to fit a Remington profile barrel and fit it about 1/2" away from the threads.
First , what o.d. should I turn the aluminum to fit the 1.400 hole, minimum and maximum?
Second, how should I turn the i.d of the aluminum for the taper of the barrel and how long should the bushing be?
My vise is 2" deep but I don't use much of that depth in the past. The B-Square busing are about 1" deep.
I like my bushings with only one split in them so they are always together , I can split them with the bandsaw after making.
any advise and tips are appreciated.
Ron

[country gent]

O would turn od 1.395-1.400 this will keep the bushing from wedging in the vise.For the bore set compound to angel and bore to size sing the compound. I would also recommend when you split the bushing not only the one side but the other leaving just .100 holding

[Stockcarver]

The hole in my vise is 1-3/4". I use brass, bronze, and aluminum for bushings. I wrap cardboard (file folder stock) around the barrel, this protects the finish and bluing. Helps to prevent slip. I turn the bushing OD a few thousandths under the vise hole I.D. then bore the bushing to fit the barrel, maybe .005 over. Then split the bushing with my powered band saw (hacksaw will do, just more work).



Bushings:




Clamp bolts are grade 9 aircraft bolts. 1" diameter.



I use a 3/4" ratchet with a 30 inch handle to tighten the bolts. Never had a barrel slip, been using the vise since 1972, lots of stubborn P14 and P17 Enfields.



Note the bushing halves are match marked, important with tapered bushings.
Also note the 1/8" gap between the vise blocks.
I stamp the bushing size on the bushing OD, makes it easy to find the proper bushing to fit a barrel.



The action wrenches should fit properly.





I will take some measurements when I get back to the shop of the bushings.

Guys get in trouble removing barrels because the action wrenches do not fit properly, the barrel vise is constructed poorly and is not capable of clamping tightly, and a big, big no no is using a vise that has hardwood blocks.

[ronniet]

O would turn od 1.395-1.400 this will keep the bushing from wedging in the vise.For the bore set compound to angel and bore to size sing the compound. I would also recommend when you split the bushing not only the one side but the other leaving just .100 holding

Thanks Country Gent, 2 questions, if I turn the o.d to 1.395-1.400 that would be just under and right on the od of the vise when closed?
and you mean not cutting the bushing al the way thru on one side leaving .100 holding it together? .
I do know how to turn my compound to make a taper but how I determine the taper or measure it while in the lathe chuck?

[ronniet]

The hole in my vise is 1-3/4". I use brass, bronze, and aluminum for bushings. I wrap cardboard (file folder stock) around the barrel, this protects the finish and bluing. Helps to prevent slip. I turn the bushing OD a few thousandths under the vise hole I.D. then bore the bushing to fit the barrel, maybe .005 over. Then split the bushing with my powered band saw (hacksaw will do, just more work).

Nice looking barrel vise, mine is a little deeper and an over kill as far as materials used but only uses 1/2" grade 8 bolts but has 4 of them. and am in the process of changing them out to a wheel studs used in race cars so the have a knurled shoulder and a capped head so I only have to use on wrench for tightening and loosing.
I have never used paper or card stock next to my barrels but will try it as I Rust blue my guns and then assemble and seems always that the rosin or something will mar the finish on them. So pissed about that I even thought of using epoxy and just tightening them by hand and let to cure.
Ron

[country gent]

Yes you want some room on the bushing to maintain alignment in the vise as they distort some from the pressure.Cutting thru the solid side leaving .100 waii allows it to clamp tighter and maintain alignment better.

Indicate the compound in to the taper. You dont need the exact angle as in 20* 13" but true alignment to it. Chuck the barrel in the chuck and indicator on the compound and indicate it to the taper. To measure the angle you can measure large end small end and length then use trig to figure it.

[ronniet]

I have made a lot of external tapers using the compound and using a thread turning bit but not one on an internal taper, so I would need to use a small boring bar?
Yes I understand how to set the barrel up in the lathe and index on its taper using the compound.
Ron

[country gent]

yes drill undersized and a boring bar to size needed. We had a really nice 3/8 X 1/2 Hss cobalt blank 6 long that could be ground up for a nice boring bar. I have in the shop some carbide blanks stock that can be cut down to solder on a steel shank to make boring bars also

[Stockcarver]

Nice looking barrel vise, mine is a little deeper and an over kill as far as materials used but only uses 1/2" grade 8 bolts but has 4 of them. and am in the process of changing them out to a wheel studs used in race cars so the have a knurled shoulder and a capped head so I only have to use on wrench for tightening and loosing.
I have never used paper or card stock next to my barrels but will try it as I Rust blue my guns and then assemble and seems always that the rosin or something will mar the finish on them. So pissed about that I even thought of using epoxy and just tightening them by hand and let to cure.
Ron

The card stock or file folder or other thin hard cardboard really does a good job of both protecting the bluing or bead blast finish and provides a non slip bond between the barrel and the bushing. It really compresses when the vise is tightened sufficiently. Gotta be tight!!!! This is why I use the 30 inch long 3/4" drive ratchet.

I used the 1 inch diameter aircraft bolts as I had a box of them from my Air Force days, from the surplus barn. Then are engine mount bolts from the C-5 Aircraft. They are a time change item, meaning after a certain amount of flying time they are removed and replaced with new. They really work well.

When I blue I have the barrel out of the receiver. Very important with hot caustic bluing, as bluing the barreled action puts salt deposits inside the threads of the barrel & receiver. And the salts will seep out around the front of the receiver ring forever.

Measured my bushings, they are 0.004" to 0.005" smaller than the bore in the vise blocks.

I used to partially split the bushings, leaving about 1/32 on one side to act as a hinge. But I obtain better clamping with a full split, the hacksaw blade cut is about the right thickness to allow a good crush on the barrel.

When I bored the vise blocks I put a 1/8" shim between them to allow a good crush on the bushing. Blocks are 4140.

Note the vise stand is bolted to the concrete floor with six 5/8" diameter Hilti Quik Bolts. The shop floor is 8 inches thick, with re bar and fiber mesh. Poured thick for good support of the three metal lathes and two milling machines.

[Pirate69]

Please explain your recommendation not to use hardwood blocks. Thanks.

The hole in my vise is 1-3/4". I use brass, bronze, and aluminum for bushings. I wrap cardboard (file folder stock) around the barrel, this protects the finish and bluing. Helps to prevent slip. I turn the bushing OD a few thousandths under the vise hole I.D. then bore the bushing to fit the barrel, maybe .005 over. Then split the bushing with my powered band saw (hacksaw will do, just more work).



Bushings:




Clamp bolts are grade 9 aircraft bolts. 1" diameter.



I use a 3/4" ratchet with a 30 inch handle to tighten the bolts. Never had a barrel slip, been using the vise since 1972, lots of stubborn P14 and P17 Enfields.



Note the bushing halves are match marked, important with tapered bushings.
Also note the 1/8" gap between the vise blocks.
I stamp the bushing size on the bushing OD, makes it easy to find the proper bushing to fit a barrel.



The action wrenches should fit properly.





I will take some measurements when I get back to the shop of the bushings.

Guys get in trouble removing barrels because the action wrenches do not fit properly, the barrel vise is constructed poorly and is not capable of clamping tightly, and a big, big no no is using a vise that has hardwood blocks.

[ronniet]

Yes its a nice vise and stand, I do this as a hobby and try and make a rifle or pistol every winter, I am behind a couple winters now.
My barrel vise clamps into a 8" jaw vise and is securely concreted into the floor also. That way the barrel vise in not taken up any needed room in the shop. and the way it is made the 8" shop vise has nothing to do with it other than holding it while the barrel is being loosened or tightened.
I just needed to make new bushings for it as the ones I have were used when I got them 20 years ago and now even more used up aluminum and needed a clear description of what works the best and I was never sold on OAK blocks, as I have taken out barrels that would have NEVER came out had I used Oak.
I appreciate the key details on what I needed about the card stock and the bushing tolerances to machine. My vise is made from 2 pieces of 2x4 1018 bored thru the long ways of 4" and has 4 - 1/2" grade 8s to clamp it together and I am in the process of upgrading those to an easier way to tighten them.
Your aircraft bolts are impressive, what is the socket size that fits the heads?

[ronniet]

BTW I made a portable Rockwell bandsaw into a stand up permanently mounted unit 25 years ago. use it daily, a few years ago I was looking for parts to rebuild it with and ran into the company SWAG off road Jeep parts and on their site they also made tables for potable band saws so I bough the best one they had and bought a new Variable speed Milwaukee band saw to use in it, sat it up on a table in another shop I have and screws the legs down with a couple drywall screws,, its still there, I use both of these saws multiple times every single days sometimes for a few hours at a time.
Using an ultra fin sharpie and Blades made by Lennox and sold at Lowes, its the most used tools in my shop saving me hours of time in belt grinding, lathe or mill set up, and countless dollars of wasted materials by using my old Walker Turner band saw or a chop saw,
Its amazing the circles I can cut out using a .025x 1/2" blade if you know how to lay out your material.
I have an old 11" Southbend , and an Craftsman ^' metal lathes and all the tooling and a Asian made milling machine but by far I use the portable bandsaws the most, I have a Doall Blade welded for the Walker Turner but the blades at Lowes are Bi-mental and will cut hard steel easily. and the are cheap, $20.00 for 3 in a box.

[Stockcarver]

Hardwood blocks? There is no way you can get the vise tight enough for stubborn barrels. I learned a long, long time ago, this is why I made my vise back in 1972.

Build some rifles using P14 and P17 Enfields and you will learn real fast.

[holsterguy]

I have a 44-40 92 winchester copy with an octagon barrel that must have been a Friday afternoon assembly. The barrel is turned in just a smidge too far, just enough to really upset me when sighting it. On the top flat picture it being at around 11:58 instead of 12:00.
Asked a “gunsmith” friend how to fix it. He said he normally locks the barrel in a big bench vice and uses a BIG crescent wrench on the receiver. Didn’t really sound quite right to me.

[ronniet]

I have put on a lot of octagonal barrel on levers, most time they are very easy to index as no matter where the sights are the most important thing is the extractor cut, it HAS to line up for the bolt.
I use oak cut block plates that are my "non marring jaws" in my bench vice to hold the barrel and not mar it on 2 of the flats.
screw on the action by hand.
Put a few layers of wide tape on the action and I use a good fitting 16" proto crescent wrench to tighten or loose,
Never scratched one yet.
If your barrel is that close to right you can use a needle file to "clean" the barrel shoulder to fit , do not take off too much. if the barrel is past the line up spot ( extractor) you can dimple the barrel shoulder a bit ( with a center punch) to tighten it up so it doesn't go past.
And you don't have to have a Gorilla arms or a 5 pound shop hammer to tighten.
Nice and snug is good.
Line up the extractor cut.

[405grain]

A very excellent thread. Stockcarver's wrench and vise show some very nice craftsmanship. ronniet seems to be on top of the game, so I have very little to add. The only offering that I can suggest is that on the aluminum barrel vise bushings that I make, I machine them so that about 1/8" of the bushing will extend beyond the edge of the vise blocks. Even though this hasn't happened (yet - fingers crossed), if the bushing gets stuck in the vise block from the forces and loads incurred during use, it will be easier to remove the stuck bushing by smacking that extended edge with a punch & hammer.
Using card stock between the vise blocks and the barrel is a good idea. I always use paper like this to prevent damage to the barrel surface. The comment about working on M1917 and P1914's as an instant education is very true. I've only pulled the barrels on two P14's, but that's enough for anyone to realize that without a relief cut ahead of the barrel shoulder, you can pull on that barrel until it tips the Earth off it's axis and that barrel isn't going to come off.

[ronniet]

Yep there is a wealth of good information with the members here!
Thank God we live in the USA and they havent pulled the curtain down on us yet!
Ron

[JLF]

Magnificent post..a luxury.

[John Taylor]

I use aluminum for most barrel clamp block and sense most barrels are different size or taper there are many block piled up over the years. The barrel vice has a 20 ton jack so it grips fairly good. On octagon barrels I use V blocks. To line up barrels on lever guns a strait edge is used in the rear sight dovetail and another on top of the frame.

[Roger Kehr]

Very nice setup. For odd shaped barrels or one offs, I cast linotype bushings. So far, so good.