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Thread: Pre-alignment pin Ideal molds/winchester molds for 25-20 WCF...experiances?

  1. #1
    Boolit Bub
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    Pre-alignment pin Ideal molds/winchester molds for 25-20 WCF...experiances?

    I' set to inherit my great-grandfather's 1892 Winchester in 25-20 (1907 production). As all of you are aware, used mold prices are pretty ridiculous right now, was looking for a 257420 or 257283.... I figured it might be neat to get a contemporary Ideal or Winchester mold, or a tong tool with the built-in molds, occasionally these seem to go for a more reasonable price. It seems I am limited to the 25720 pattern, the 86gr being by far the most common, and the many of them seem to be made before Ideal started using aligning pins, I can't find much on how well the Winchester molds perform. I figured I'd ask here if any of you have any experience with any of these molds, to that end....

    1. Is the lack of aligning pins on the older ideal molds a major issue? This applies to the tong tools as well.
    2. Does anyone have any experience with the Winchester molds?
    3. Does anyone have any experience with the 25720 86gr in a 25-20? I see complaints about the the twist rate/bullet rate problems in Win 92 25-20s often but also plenty of accounts of 80ish grain bullets working fine...not much info specifically on the 25720

    Thanks,

    i

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy kootne's Avatar
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    I sure would not be afraid to try one. I have several of the Ideal tong tool/molds, some with pins, some without. All are in good shape and cast fine bullets. I have also used old Winchester molds with only one bad experience. That one is a 32XL that is not bored round or centered. I think those old molds are generally fine for the iron sighted rifles of the day. My 45/75 will put 5 shots into 3" at a 100 yards with boring regularity. Not bad for open sights, 130+ year old bore and blackpowder ammo loaded with old tools. But, some old guns just don't shoot, and some tools may be mismatched to the gun due to looser tolerances than we are accustomed to today. I would say, "go for it". Worst case is a swing and a miss. You can always resell the old tool, many are bought just for decorating the cave.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master
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    The reason you see mostly the same mould pattern for 25-20 WCF is that the seating arrangement in the Winchester and Ideal loading tools had fixed seating dies... a different bullet profile might cause problems with seating and finished length. Don’t get me wrong, I love the early Ideal and (especially) Winchester tools, but they do lack the flexibility of their descendants. By the time the Ideal #3 came along, the loader had maximum options to use different bullets and OALs, so for once, “New and Improved” ... WAS!

    Froggie
    "It aint easy being green!"

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
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    I use Winchester moulds a lot, and they cast very well. They are, however, cut to cast to the nominal size of Winchester barrels and are meant to be used unsized. If your bore is larger than factory specs, you might have a problem. The handles are spaced a little widely for maximum comfort, for my hands at least. The ones without wood on the handles have a more comfortable spacing for me, but in that case, something has to be done about the hot metal against your hands.

    That goes double with the #4 tong tools. The handles are wide and comfortably spaced, but the whole tool gets up to casting temperature by the time good boolits start falling out. Even a couple layers of cloth in leather gloves is not comfortable, and if you plan to shoot a lot, you’d better have well calloused hands inside those gloves, and a stiff upper lip.

    I haven’t seen a “long, cool handled” Ideal mould out of alignment, pin or not, but I imagine enough bashing on one could result in this. The major defect I see in some of them is a kind of crud deposit or erosion in the cavity, making the grooves kind of fuzzy and the base wider than the rest of the cavity. This condition probably can be lapped out, and will still turn out usable boolits after sizing and lubing whether lapped or not, but it certainly isn’t a pristine new cavity.

    Another defect is excessive gap between the blocks when closed, making an “angel” boolit. I’ve fixed this condition a few times by checking the pin hole (if present) for burrs and squeezing the mould blocks together in a heavy vise, but this is definitely a Hail Mary repair. Sometimes, the castings were not planed completely flat, so there is a slightly shrunken area around the cavity. This, of course, is a major operation to fix. I generally just curse whoever did this at the factory and hope Mr. Barlow fired him quickly and that he starved on the streets of New Haven.

    The only cavity I’ve come across that was misaligned was a #4 Ideal tool in .25-20 SS, with no alignment pin and the priming setup on the end of the mould. Tragically, this one had the bullet cherrie let in to the 77-gr length, which was the reason I bought the tool in the first place. The misalignment is front-to-back, so couldn’t have been produced by abusive handling; I don’t know how it wound up this way, or how to move the one side forwards to correct it.

    If you can find a mould with a shortened 25720 cavity, I recommend you grab it. The .25-20 was originally set up for the 77gr boolit, and why the factories standardized on the 86gr is one of those mysteries, like why roundnose bullets are used and seated so deep in the .257 Roberts, or why the .44 Spl was loaded the same as the .44 Russian, even though the case was longer.

    Most .25-20s shoot the 86gr OK, but, as A.C. Gould said, it turned a superior hunting cartridge into an indifferent target cartridge. If you have a 10” twist liner in your 92, of course this doesn’t apply.

  5. #5
    Boolit Bub
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    Thanks for the replies everyone....It seems that those Winchester molds are worth a try though that is good to know about the nominal bore size, thank you Ramrod. I am not sure about the bore condition of this rifle...dad has it right now and said it was packed with grease, I hope that 1) that means the bore was worth saving and 2) grandpa (I assume it was him, not my great-grandfather) knew what he was doing when he did it....some surprising things hold/take in moisture. If not, I am willing to do a liner....that may make some purist cringe, I know, but so far as I'm concerned this is an heirloom as the resale price is immaterial. I want it to be functional, but aside from that it will remain untouched. As soon as I get my hands on it I'll slug/chamber cast/inspect and see what I've go to work with.

    Also thanks for the advice on the tong tools...I have a #4 in 25-35 with a rough finish that casts nice bullets that I can't use, way too heavy. And it is indeed a man-cave (basement laboratory?) curio. As froggie said, I appreciate the design but its not flexible...mainly looking for the mold and having some period loading tools to go with the rifle, the loading will be done on one of my new improved Pacific C presses... There is a 25-20 one in 77gr on the bay, but I could only get the guy down to about $180...I think $75 is exorbitant, but I would be willing to do that.....am I being cheap? I saw a 25720 in 77gr go for about 130 a couple weeks ago, they are out there but current prices are getting weird. That's part of my problem with the 257420s, I could wait for them to come back in stock and buy new for what they are going for, considering S$H and all that.. As a side not there is also a 25-20 tool with the most beautiful finish I have ever seen....looking at the cavity I can see why the finish is so good: the cherry was cut in too deep and there is a nice nasty burr at the top of the cavity...I have a machinist who owes me a favor so this wouldn't be a big deal to correct but I doubt the other potential buyers will take this into consideration....kind of reminds me of the mint 45 acp tru-line jr dies I have, they are mint because you can't get a 45 case into them so no-one used them.

    I will keep looking, and thanks to all of your advice won't be afraid to jump on a older mold sans pins, pending the right price and inspection. Should put a WTB add up one here...can't hurt.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    I have one Winchester single cavity mold - 32 caliber and an exact copy of the Lyman 008 design. I think the Ideal came first but I'm not sure.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check