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Thread: Scout Scope vs Red dot?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    Scout Scope vs Red dot?

    I put a Pictenny rail on my my Krag sporter mostly cause it was cool. but had some trouble mounting a K10 weaver, the only scope I had long enough to reach back for eye relief. The old K10 just wasn't up to the task so have been thinking about another scope.

    Today I was researching low cost Scout Scopes and saw the Vortex 2X7 for a good price ~150 bucks and looked at the specs. The only problem I saw was the weight, 13 oz, which adds up to a lot on the Krag Carbine. One of the sites suggested a Bushnell TRS-25 red dot sight as an alternative, with a 3 minute dot it would half my 6 minute FO front sight bead and give me 1/4 min adjustments. And it only weighs ~4 oz!

    Now I only shoot the Krag at the range for accuracy, and have to position my front site at the 6 o'clock position on a 6 inch bull target sighting +3 inches high to hit the X ring. I'm figuring a 3 min (3") dot would allow me to center the dot at 100 and adjust up 24 clicks for a 200 yd zero, perfect for my Cast boolet silhouette matches.

    Thought I'd ask the board if you had any comments suggestions?

  2. #2
    A.K.A. Bullshop Jr. SierraHunter's Avatar
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    13oz is crazy light for a scope. I have a Vorex viper 1-6x24 on my 375 Ruger and I think it is 22 oz.

    If only for target shooting, you might get away with the scout, but I am not a fan. It puts the weight too far forward in the rifle, and throws off the balance. Also, they don’t make them in a true 1x so I can’t shoot both eyes open.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I love red dot sights. But they are not IMO designed for beyond 50 yard accurate shooting.

    Even a 2.5moa dot means your dot is covering 2.5 inches of your target. Even if perfectly sighted in that means those bullets can be anywhere in that two and a half inch circle. It is virtually impossible to shoot a true 1 MOA group through a 2.5 MOA dot.

    Where they do shine is in the field and low light conditions. Fast aquisition of target. Larger field of view. Makes it much easier to get on and stay on target on a moving animal. If we are talking deer they can easily sail over a 4 strand barbed wire fence with no apparent effort.
    So there is a LOT of air around them if they are moving.

    Closer range, 50 and under, and pistol range IMO they rock.

    All that being said personally I strongly dislike scout scopes.

    I have a couple of rifles that don't get shot because at 68 I am no longer accurate enough with iron sights past 50 yards.
    And they just are not designed for a normal scope, and I won't put a scout scope on them.

    Red Dots can be great but you have to understand their limitations.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Beware of light scopes. But if you only use it for range work, robustness may not matter.

    For shooting targets and accuracy, I would go with a scope. Before using an LER scope, tape an equivalent weight where the scope will sit and see how the balance affects you.
    Don Verna


  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have the TRS-25 on an M1 Carbine mounted to an Ultimak rail. It is not a combat tough optic but has held up plinking at the gravel pit. I can get pretty consistent 80% hits on clay pigeons standing up on the berm at 75 yds. Of course it is not a precision optic, it is designed for fast hits on objects. The TRS is an inexpensive way to try out a red dot. I have an Aimpoint PRO on an AR15 which is far nicer and sturdier. But for plinking fun the TRS-25 has worked fine.

    I have a scout scope and it is OK if you want slightly more precision but you pay for it with unbalanced forward weight.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Either the Vortex or the Burris 2x7 scout scope would be my suggestion. I have used both and have a Burris [nothing wrong with the Vortex, just wasn't my scope but a friends] on my FR8 scout rifle.

    I also have tried numerous red dot sights on several rifles. As mentioned most all of the have dots too big so they are basically short range sights if any real accuracy is wanted. Exceptions are the EoTechs and Burris Fast Fire II's which have smaller 1 moa dots. those can be use quite accurately out to 300 yards and beyond. However, they still are not as accurate as a scout scope, even the lower powered 1.5 - 2 power scopes.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    Was thinking about the Vortex 2x7 scout scope but I can buy a lot of lead for the diffeerence in price between the TRS-25 and the Vortex, so...??
    I really love my Redfield aperture sight on the Krag but the surgery last year has screwed up my right eye. I was looking for something a little more accurate for load development and yes the Red dot isn't perfect but might be better.

    I have a simmons 2x pistol scope (somewhere?) that I am going to try. I took it off my K .22 because it was too bulky and not much better than the iron sights. Not sure if the Simmons eye relief is short enough.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master pietro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krag 1901 View Post

    I have a simmons 2x pistol scope (somewhere?) that I am going to try.
    Designated pistol scopes don't have the "normal" eye relief that a standard riflescope does - they have eye relief "windows".

    Look at a scope's technical info online, as some pistol scopes have a 9"-17" window, others have an 11"-21" window.

    Most scopes designated as "Scout Scopes" have a set 9" of eye relief



    You can determine your particular needs via mounting the rifle in your usual shooting position and have someone assist you by holding any scope atop the mount bases (don't tighten it down) as far forward as it will allow the eyepiece to clear the bolt handle.

    Measure the distance of your eye to the rear edge of the scope's eye piece - which will give the approximate eye relief your ergonomics require.

    I say require because different folks have different neck lengths, face fullness, chest fullness , & arm lengths.



    I was able to use a Weaver 2-7x variable pistol scope because I needed 9-1/2"-10" eye relief, which fit that particular scope's eye relief window for a full sight picture.



    That sight picture can be greatly diminished or disappear altogether, the further or closer the scope is to the shooter's eye.



    I further found that a Simmons shotgun/muzzleloader 2.5x scope has a 7" fixed eye relief, and weighs about 8oz. - which make it like using a peepsight with magnification.





    Simmons also makes a 4x32 shotgun scope, but IDK what one's eye relief is.

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  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    You didn’t say what your eye issues are, some people see a red dot as a comet, bunch of grapes or a starburst due to eye problems. If my eyes are tired or I’m dehydrated I see a comet. If you can I’d suggest finding the sight in a store (Walmart used to carry the TRS-25) and test driving it.

    I like a scout scope on a rifle and have two of the now discontinued Leupolds. But a lot of people just can’t wrap their head around using them. Scopes and prismatic optics seem to work better for people with vision problems.

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick R View Post
    You didn’t say what your eye issues are, some people see a red dot as a comet, bunch of grapes or a starburst due to eye problems. If my eyes are tired or I’m dehydrated I see a comet. If you can I’d suggest finding the sight in a store (Walmart used to carry the TRS-25) and test driving it.

    I like a scout scope on a rifle and have two of the now discontinued Leupolds. But a lot of people just can’t wrap their head around using them. Scopes and prismatic optics seem to work better for people with vision problems.
    Yeah, good call. I was thinking about that, going to a store to check them out. My eye problem is the Doc's cut the nerve that allows me to raise the right eyebrow, when they carved a hole in my temple, then later cut a hunk of bone out of my skull, and my eyebrow droops. Can fix with some adhesive tape for shooting if necessary.

    My Simmons 2X is one of the loooong eye relief types. I've been looking for it to mount on the Krag to see if that would work.
    I remember trying it out closer, but it didn't seem to work, but Hey my memory is a little suspect after 5-10 years. I didn't have the rail mounted then.

    I've thought about the reflex sights too, but haven't found one with a dot size/ reticle under 4 min or cheap enough for my Irish soul. They also are hard to adjust with fingers, need a wrench or screwdriver to rezero. I guess that is also a prob with the TRS-25 though. I thought about buying one of the really cheap reflex sights just to try it out, then if I thought it would work out, buy something better. The good reflex sights are more that a decent scout scope though! Might as well buy a Leopold!

    Humm, decisions decisions??? I just need to do some shooting and forget the buying, I guess.

    Just spent hours on Optic Planet searching for red dots, reflex and Scout scopes. Looks like the TRS-25 and the Vortex 2X7 are the best bets. Cheap Reflex sights are junk (DOA to busted after 3-50 rounds) as far as I was able to determine. Best bets seem to be priced about the same as the TRS-25 and still no better than 3 min dots. That is unless you wan to spend $250-400 on one!
    Looks like the best bang for buck is the Vortex Optics Crossfire II2x7 with the mill dot reticle. ~$130.
    Last edited by Krag 1901; 03-15-2021 at 11:28 PM.

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    If you are serious about looking at a Red Dot, I have 4 or 5 of these mounted on various guns and have yet to have a problem bigger than changing a battery.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    In dual color multi reticule runs about 65$ at Amazon.
    Dual color does not do a lot for me. But mine with the multi reticule have 4 options, the last of which is a 2.5 MOA dot. Used on the lowest power setting you can see it keeps it as small as possible.

    For rifles I really prefer the Truglo 2x Red Dot. Like a cross between a small light scope and a red dot.
    100 yard targets look like they are at 50.
    It is actually cheaper at 47$ as no multi color or changeable Reticule.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    I love red dot sights. But they are not IMO designed for beyond 50 yard accurate shooting.

    Even a 2.5moa dot means your dot is covering 2.5 inches of your target. Even if perfectly sighted in that means those bullets can be anywhere in that two and a half inch circle. It is virtually impossible to shoot a true 1 MOA group through a 2.5 MOA dot.

    Where they do shine is in the field and low light conditions. Fast aquisition of target. Larger field of view. Makes it much easier to get on and stay on target on a moving animal. If we are talking deer they can easily sail over a 4 strand barbed wire fence with no apparent effort.
    So there is a LOT of air around them if they are moving.

    Closer range, 50 and under, and pistol range IMO they rock.

    All that being said personally I strongly dislike scout scopes.

    I have a couple of rifles that don't get shot because at 68 I am no longer accurate enough with iron sights past 50 yards.
    And they just are not designed for a normal scope, and I won't put a scout scope on them.

    Red Dots can be great but you have to understand their limitations.
    Red dots are very capable of shooting small groups with a rifle. I put a Burris FF3 on my Win/Miroku 1886 lever gun and at my personal range of 114 yards I was getting groups of 1.75” or less. Not once, but repeatable group after group. The size of the dot doesn’t restrict you to group size.
    Attachment 279684Attachment 279685

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
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    As for Scout Scopes, I've settled on the Vortex 2x7 Viper II ~$130 on Amazon, best price. For Red Dots the BSA TRS-25 3 min dot looks to be the best bang for buck. The Burris looks good but much higher priced. I've got a couple of Burris scopes and Like them okay.

    If I can just sell the .243 and .38 ACP dies have left to thin, I may buy both the Vortex and the TRS-25. Until then I'll just keep looking for my SImmons 2x and see if that might work out.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master VariableRecall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick R View Post
    You didn’t say what your eye issues are, some people see a red dot as a comet, bunch of grapes or a starburst due to eye problems. If my eyes are tired or I’m dehydrated I see a comet. If you can I’d suggest finding the sight in a store (Walmart used to carry the TRS-25) and test driving it.

    I like a scout scope on a rifle and have two of the now discontinued Leupolds. But a lot of people just can’t wrap their head around using them. Scopes and prismatic optics seem to work better for people with vision problems.
    I have quite a case of astigmatism and I've got to wear glasses to get anything done. I get a lot of distortion from things like streetlights and headlights while driving. When I've used my buddy's cheap red dot, distortion is apparent, but not too much of a problem. I haven't tried red dots at range, however. I think I may just continue to figure out what works best for me.

  15. #15
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    winelover's Avatar
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    With optics you get what you pay for. Red dot's are no different. I have both set ups, on my 357 Rossi carbine. The Vortex 2 x 7 Scout and the TRS-25 red dot. The Vortex is used for load development. The TRS-25 for plinking.

    I do not recommend the TRS-25.....the dot is comet like, and it's not due to my vision. I have been using Trijicon's and Sig Sauer red dots without getting the comets tail.

    I purchased the TSR-25 to see what all the hoopla was about. Saw good reviews on this forum, and the price was right. It will soon be replaced with a Romeo 5.

    Winelover

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    NSB I DARE you. Pull the red dot, put any scope of 4 power or more on it. Same load same everything.
    And watch your groups shrink in half.

    I don't consider 1.75" at 100 to be a small group.
    And yes on a good day when the stars are aligned just right groups that size happen.

    Then I put a 1x5 variable on the same rifle, same load and saw group size get cut in half.

    Think I'm wrong, ok. But PROVE it!

    Remember, I said I LIKE Red Dots. I also know what they are good at, and what they are not good at.
    I truly believe we need to get back to basics.

    Get right with the Lord.
    Get back to the land.
    Get back to thinking like our forefathers thought.


    May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you
    and give you His peace. Let all of the earth – all of His creation – worship and praise His name! Make His
    praise glorious!

  17. #17
    Boolit Bub
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    I would agree with everything I have read so far, especially the quality comments. I hate to replace things. I have (& had) red dots on pistols, rifles and combat style shotguns. Some didn't last a week (cheep Chinese). I consider Ultradot to be the best, they have a clean dot and will last forever, even on big bores, resale is also good if you decide to sell. #2 is Hakko of Japan, they do mostly OEM and some mfg in their name, v. nice and they have been doing it a long time. I especially like red dots for fast target acquisition, and accuracy up to 50 yds, I do have an older Bushnell MP red/green dot on an AR that I can squeeze accuracy out of at a hundred (great scope BTW). They have their purpose.
    I have a love/hate relationship with scout scopes. Currently I only have 1: a Leupold 2X on a custom 35 Whelen. This one falls into the love category. It's a close range, fast handling brush rifle, just what the scout concept was designed to do. Never shot the Vortex 2-7, sure see a lot for sale. Wonder if Jeff Cooper would like a variable? I have mostly had Burris (US) - they were certainly the best and Leupold. =0= complaints on either of those brands.
    Good luck with your quest

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    NSB I DARE you. Pull the red dot, put any scope of 4 power or more on it. Same load same everything.
    And watch your groups shrink in half.

    I don't consider 1.75" at 100 to be a small group.
    And yes on a good day when the stars are aligned just right groups that size happen.

    Then I put a 1x5 variable on the same rifle, same load and saw group size get cut in half.

    Think I'm wrong, ok. But PROVE it!

    Remember, I said I LIKE Red Dots. I also know what they are good at, and what they are not good at.
    You may not consider the groups small, but anyone...and I mean anyone who owns a 45-70 lever gun will tell you that those are pretty decent groups by anyone’s standards. Yes, most of my bolt guns in lighter calibers will shoot an inch or less. I’ve seen very few lever guns shoot better than these five shot groups. Most shooters would be pleased to get their 45-70 lever guns to shoot that good with any scope. You need a LOT more experience shooting to make your comments....you simply don’t know what you’re talking about.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master
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    One thing I would try for load development if I had a large "dot" is to use a special target. Say you have a 3 MOA dot. Use a target with a 4 MOA 'open area' that the dot can be centered into. Your eye will try to center the dot in the "hole" just like when you use an aperture sight. Would be easy to do with a template and a can of spray paint.

    Depending on your eyes the "open" area can be adjusted to what works for you.

    I would try that before I ever mounted a LER scope on a rifle.

    BTW, I am looking at doing something with a top eject M94 Winny, and leaning at mounting a "dot" type of sight like the Sig Romeo on a base that fits into the rear sight notch. Not sure the that type of base (link below) will work on your Krag as I do not know anything about the Krag.

    https://pearsonscopemount.com/

    I have an EoTech on an AR and have also mounted it on a Trap shotgun. The one advantage of a reflex sight I like is not having an eye relief "window". It is extremely fast to use compared to a scope and mounting location is not critical.
    Last edited by dverna; 03-16-2021 at 11:47 AM.
    Don Verna


  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    One thing I would try for load development if I had a large "dot" is to use a special target. Say you have a 3 MOA dot. Use a target with a 4 MOA 'open area' that the dot can be centered into. Your eye will try to center the dot in the "hole" just like when you use an aperture sight. Would be easy to do with a template and a can of spray paint.
    This is exactly how you shoot small groups with a dot sight, or even a bead front sight. Once you’re sighted in, if hunting just know that your bullet will strike in the center of the dot. A three inch dot covers very little of a deer at 100 yds....just three inches. Put the dot where you want to hit and you’re good to go.

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