New Member and new 1886 45-90 help

[HighUintas]

Straight black - blow tube .....sounds simple huh!
I went at the whole blackpowder cartridge thing with the mindset we should be able to shoot a competitive target without cleaning between shots - - been doing it with my muzzle loaders for years and won a good share of events - - what could be so hard?
I think the blow tube is very conditions dependent - believe I over did it the first comp I shot in using it - had moved from my dry low humid environment - increased elevation 2500feet, increased humidity, lower temperature - I reckon I blew a couple of shots from maybe possibles (5) into 2 and 3 scores - I ended with a 38/50 where I was headed for 42 -44 from 50 ------CW and most of the blokes we follow here would shoot 50 on that target and not even blink but I was happy on the day and every time we shoot we learn.

Thats my Sharps 45/70 - its an old Marcheno sharps repro, carbine stock, had been neglected just a little in storage (previous owner) and a couple rust marks near the muzzle - clean every shot it was great but it leaded like crazy on those marks - three shots ok - a combination of the bore roughness and poor boolits not carrying enough lube. I eventually got tired of it and took the hacksaw to it back past the rust mark 26" now and decent boolits = no more problem. So -----I blow it every shot but just one normal exhale. Its a learning curve and everywhere and every body is gonna be a little different.

Uberti model 1876 (45/75) straight blackpowder, for the conditions I shoot in, once every third or fifth shot will keep it going ok - more to the point is keeping the shot cadence down so it doesnt get hot (thinner barrel than the sharps and 2" longer at 28") again good boolits with plenty lube and this is just a beautiful bore - mirror smooth.

Chiappa 1886 (45/70) this one I use the duplex load in (7 grains 4227 + 63 grains BP) + 45 thou HDPE wad, 335 grain modified LEE boolit (that cut down 459-405HB mold) gets right around 1545FPS at 22feet on my chrono. Its always cleaned up fine after ten or a dozen in a string. I bought this one used - it wouldnt feed a live round from the magazine at first try, I got piZZZed off, gonna take it back, then I decided to try it - made ten blackpowder reloads on new brass I had, put a tang sight on, shot it, quickly went from gonna take it back to they not getting it back !!!
Attachment 282786

so 7 shots here taken at 100yards off a standing bench with a good tang sight

first shot clean and cold is the one out of (left) the upper group

then shot three, the upper three shot group !!! wandered up for a looksee --------

Then the lower three -- needed no more convincing by that time
This is the standard international pistol target 1" between the rings, makes that top group pretty special and even the lower one is comfortably inside two inches - so that gun stays with me - maybe I got lucky ? we could hope all Chiappas shoot that good?
Sidenote here - homemade powder - and I followed up after a clean, with a ten shot chrono string that got me 9FPS extreme spread .
You bet I had a good day that day !!!
That Chiappa barrel dont look quite as nice as the Uberti but it shoots as good (well they both shoot better than I do anyway) .

That's a pretty slick target!

[HighUintas]

I went to the range today. I was stuck on the 100yd though because I was breaking in a rebarrel bolt gun job.

My accuracy wasn't great. About 20 shots had about a 14" spread. I didn't expect much for accuracy though, because I loaded these only expanding the neck instead of resizing and I had very poor consistency in neck tension and seating depth.

For leading, it seemed to be reduced from the last time I shot these 457193 booolits. But, a lot more of it came out on patches when cleaning than normal, I think. It was pretty well spread throughout the bore except for near the throat.

I ordered a new neck expander last week from baco. I think it is the 0.459-0.462. I'll load up some more straight BP rounds with the 457193 next week and see how it does with the new neck expander and changing charge weights/compression.

I might also try relubing some of these 457193 with my emmerts, just to see what happens.

[Chill Wills]

I don't have much for good advice on bore leading other than the dumb statement, some rifles are just prone to leading. And that is a situation that does not have to be permanent. Keep shooting it. I have a few that lead and others with the same good barrel maker (Badger) that don't lead a speck, ...and with the same ammo.
My wild guess is that no combination of lube, lead alloy powder or seating depth ..... will correct it in the short term.

Jacketed bullets like suggested an above post may do something or fire lapping the bore has made some rifles improve. Hand lapping is best but takes a skilled hand to "do no harm". Experience has shown "too slick" is no good either. Much debate there!!!!!

Before doing anything drastic (you know this) work slowly and don't overdo it. That rifle is worth it.

[indian joe]

I too am about ran out of smart ideas - cant help thinking there might be a little of too much hurry mixed up in this - or just something simple being missed - relax and keep shooting, it will sort out. I have scrubbed out my share of lead along the way but would say it was never too difficult to figure what I did wrong to bring it about. But then i think about that sharps I bought in the early days - darn thing leaded every time I shot it and the bore looked really nice - we spent an hour one night studying it with a jewellers loup and finally I saw the part healed rust marks that were causing the problem - BUT - my boolits were lube deficient - I was shooting without an overpowder wad - so that was three not one cause. It was a pretty solid learning curve to get that thing working but eventually did it.

[HighUintas]

Thanks guys. It has definitely found it's final home, so I'll just keep working at it!

I just got my other expanding mandrel from baco yesterday. So, I'll give that a whirl next time. I did at least have a good group and less lead going with the MBC bullets relubed with emmerts on a duplex, so I'll be able to use that for a feel good until I get it figured out!

Maybe I'll be able to smooth it out with some jacketed bullets if they're ever available again!

[HighUintas]

If I have some degree of leading, which in some of the sessions I've shot the leading wasn't severe), how do I develop an accurate load? Is it most important that I eliminate leading prior to finding an accurate BP load? Can I just shoot my different BP loads round robin style to make sure they all influenced somewhat equally by the leading and fouling similar to how I would do a jacketed smokeless load in a 30-06?

I ask because I usually go to the range after work and they close at 5, so my time there is limited. It's not easy for me at the moment to go spend a whole day at the range cleaning the lead out between each load. And, I don't think I'm able to do that at the range. There's not a place where I can lay the gun down horizontally with the top of the action facing down to prevent junk from getting in the action. When push a patch through the bore there, I've been doing it vertically. That is why I've just been shooting a full round of 20 of the same load each time I go. It's a waste of bullets and powder if I find that my accuracy is terrible after 5 shots, but I've primarily just been looking at the leading aspect of the loads.

In short, I guess I'm not sure what step to take next on my shooting path that will reduce my waste of powder and bullets!

[veeman]

Maybe you might think about getting the barrel fire-lapped or even relined?

[indian joe]

If I have some degree of leading, which in some of the sessions I've shot the leading wasn't severe), how do I develop an accurate load? Is it most important that I eliminate leading prior to finding an accurate BP load? Can I just shoot my different BP loads round robin style to make sure they all influenced somewhat equally by the leading and fouling similar to how I would do a jacketed smokeless load in a 30-06?

I ask because I usually go to the range after work and they close at 5, so my time there is limited. It's not easy for me at the moment to go spend a whole day at the range cleaning the lead out between each load. And, I don't think I'm able to do that at the range. There's not a place where I can lay the gun down horizontally with the top of the action facing down to prevent junk from getting in the action. When push a patch through the bore there, I've been doing it vertically. That is why I've just been shooting a full round of 20 of the same load each time I go. It's a waste of bullets and powder if I find that my accuracy is terrible after 5 shots, but I've primarily just been looking at the leading aspect of the loads.

In short, I guess I'm not sure what step to take next on my shooting path that will reduce my waste of powder and bullets!

Can we go back over some basics
1) boolit ? I looked at pics of that MBC buffalo you used at the start - hard to tell from the pics - I thought maybe a bit skimpy on lube - so heres measurements from my LEE slug - its 405 grain FN (I posted pics earlier) - alloy is about same as a 50/50 mix of Lyman No2 and pure lead - 3 lube grooves - they measure .090 wide and are .045 deep - my lube is 50/50 beeswax and neatsfoot oil - pan lubed - I will not load a boolit that is missing ANY lube from any of the grooves they must be firm and full - the boolits I measured this morning are .460 from the mold - I would shoot those unsized OR run them through a .462 size die to just firm up the lube

2) powder --I think I would keep going with the duplex load in this gun - 5 to 7 grains of 4227 and if you want to tone it down a bit go to FG blackpowder instead of FFg . light compression 1/10" to 1/8" -- a decent wad over the powder (I like the way the .045 HDPE shoots in my rifles) pick up a few shot ones - if the wad is coming out unscathed its proly doin its job ok

3) Time ---- If I rushed into the range after work with only half an hour before they chased me out and I ripped 20 through my lever gun - yep ,its proly gonna lead up some - take it easy for a bit! shoot five slow and careful - spot each one and mark it pen and paper by your side as you shoot - call each shot then mark it down and number - make a blow tube (just a piece of clear soft plastic tube that will fit in the chamber will do) and blow it every shot - one long slow exhale - (dont have to do the puffing billy thing here)

You said you are getting a lube star at the muzzle so none of this should be happening - but it is - so we missed something someplace!

4) make sure your barrel is squeaky clean of lead before you start, can do that at home so its not an issue time wise

5) Dont get it hot - a lever gun barrel is not built heavy and these big blackpowder loads generate a lot of heat (way way more than smokeless) - go slow enough that it never gets more than comfortable warm in your hand - just poke along steady and see how many shots you can get before things start to go south.

6) dont even think about shooting a commercial smokeless style lube with blackpowder - you need your blackpowder lube - If you buying boolits from MBC they should be ok with selling them bare and you pan lube at home - type of lube is critical here !!!! (maybe they using proper BP lube ? but need to know that)

All I can think of for now, hope I havent come across as criticising, thats not the intention at all, just think maybe something simple has been missed here ??

[HighUintas]

Can we go back over some basics
1) boolit ? I looked at pics of that MBC buffalo you used at the start - hard to tell from the pics - I thought maybe a bit skimpy on lube - so heres measurements from my LEE slug - its 405 grain FN (I posted pics earlier) - alloy is about same as a 50/50 mix of Lyman No2 and pure lead - 3 lube grooves - they measure .090 wide and are .045 deep - my lube is 50/50 beeswax and neatsfoot oil - pan lubed - I will not load a boolit that is missing ANY lube from any of the grooves they must be firm and full - the boolits I measured this morning are .460 from the mold - I would shoot those unsized OR run them through a .462 size die to just firm up the lube

2) powder --I think I would keep going with the duplex load in this gun - 5 to 7 grains of 4227 and if you want to tone it down a bit go to FG blackpowder instead of FFg . light compression 1/10" to 1/8" -- a decent wad over the powder (I like the way the .045 HDPE shoots in my rifles) pick up a few shot ones - if the wad is coming out unscathed its proly doin its job ok

3) Time ---- If I rushed into the range after work with only half an hour before they chased me out and I ripped 20 through my lever gun - yep ,its proly gonna lead up some - take it easy for a bit! shoot five slow and careful - spot each one and mark it pen and paper by your side as you shoot - call each shot then mark it down and number - make a blow tube (just a piece of clear soft plastic tube that will fit in the chamber will do) and blow it every shot - one long slow exhale - (dont have to do the puffing billy thing here)

You said you are getting a lube star at the muzzle so none of this should be happening - but it is - so we missed something someplace!

4) make sure your barrel is squeaky clean of lead before you start, can do that at home so its not an issue time wise

5) Dont get it hot - a lever gun barrel is not built heavy and these big blackpowder loads generate a lot of heat (way way more than smokeless) - go slow enough that it never gets more than comfortable warm in your hand - just poke along steady and see how many shots you can get before things start to go south.

6) dont even think about shooting a commercial smokeless style lube with blackpowder - you need your blackpowder lube - If you buying boolits from MBC they should be ok with selling them bare and you pan lube at home - type of lube is critical here !!!! (maybe they using proper BP lube ? but need to know that)

All I can think of for now, hope I havent come across as criticising, thats not the intention at all, just think maybe something simple has been missed here ??

I don't take it as critical at all, IJ! I truly do appreciate all the help you guys have given me thus far and will continue to appreciate any knowledge you can impart going forward.

Here's some responses to your points so we're on the same page.

1. Boolit - I'll measure the grooves on that MBC bullet. The lubw that came on those was not BP lube, so I relubed then with a modified emmerts in a pan. I didn't know missing a tiny bit of lube was critical. I usually make sure they're full, but will pay more attention and cull the ones that aren't completely full.

2.powder - check. I'll make sure I'm not going over 1/8" compression. I think I may have been around 0.185".

3. Time - I actually leave work early on range day so that I have 1.5-2 hrs to shoot. I always take my time, shoot no more than 3-4 before letting it cool completely. It never gets more than comfy warm to the touch. I always mark my shots in a note pad too! So long as they hit the paper

4. Barrel clean - there may generally be a tiny traces somewhere that I don't spot with my borescope... I always inspect it really well with my borescope for lead before calling it good. But should be pretty dang close to spotless

5. Heat - covered

6. Lube- modified emmerts on my relubed, and I think spg on the ones CW sent me

I'll measure my lube grooves this evening. Thanks!

[freakonaleash]

Well, I finally read all 7 pages. I used to have an original 86 in 45-90. Here's what I recommend from my notes of years ago.. SLUG the barrel. this is important. Find out what the twist is. This is also important. The old guns had a twist about 1 in 35 or so. Mine wouldn't shoot anything over 350gr bullet or so with out going all wobbly. I shot the old Gould hollow point that went about 334gr out of my mould. I cast from 20-1 or 30-1. I used SPG and on hot days I also used a 1/8" lube cookie. I always used a card under the bullet when shooting BP. My experience was common when shooting BP. The first two shots would touch or nearly so. the 3rd would be out a couple inches and 4 and 5 would be out 5" to 6". Very little point in shooting any more after 5 shots with out running a wet patch down the bore followed by a couple dry ones. Blow tubing is helpful and will postpone your need to wipe by a couple shots. I also had a Uberti '76 that all of this worked on too.
I'd get rid of the bore scope, it's messing with your head.
When shooting smokeless I'd shoot the same bullet and 5744. kept the FPS at around 1400-1450-ish 2.5" to 4" 5 shot groups when I was seeing well.
ALSO, you might try wrapping the bullet 2X with Teflon plumbers tape and shrink it down with a bic lighter. Should take care of any leading and will also reduce the size of your group a bit. I always use the Teflon trick on any gun with a less than perfect bore.

[HighUintas]

Well, I finally read all 7 pages. I used to have an original 86 in 45-90. Here's what I recommend from my notes of years ago.. SLUG the barrel. this is important. Find out what the twist is. This is also important. The old guns had a twist about 1 in 35 or so. Mine wouldn't shoot anything over 350gr bullet or so with out going all wobbly. I shot the old Gould hollow point that went about 334gr out of my mould. I cast from 20-1 or 30-1. I used SPG and on hot days I also used a 1/8" lube cookie. I always used a card under the bullet when shooting BP. My experience was common when shooting BP. The first two shots would touch or nearly so. the 3rd would be out a couple inches and 4 and 5 would be out 5" to 6". Very little point in shooting any more after 5 shots with out running a wet patch down the bore followed by a couple dry ones. Blow tubing is helpful and will postpone your need to wipe by a couple shots. I also had a Uberti '76 that all of this worked on too.
I'd get rid of the bore scope, it's messing with your head.
When shooting smokeless I'd shoot the same bullet and 5744. kept the FPS at around 1400-1450-ish 2.5" to 4" 5 shot groups when I was seeing well.
ALSO, you might try wrapping the bullet 2X with Teflon plumbers tape and shrink it down with a bic lighter. Should take care of any leading and will also reduce the size of your group a bit. I always use the Teflon trick on any gun with a less than perfect bore.

I had read about that Teflon idea somewhere.... That is really interesting and clever! I might try that just for fun

I did "slug" my bore, which I thought I had posted in this thread. I used one of my sifter bullets and pushed one into the muzzle and back out, then also all the way through from breech to muzzle and out.

Muzzle 0.4565-0.457
Breech to muzzle is the same

Do you think the wiping with a wet patch after 2-3 shots still applies to a duplex load? That is the primary reason I was using a duplex

[freakonaleash]

I have no experience with duplex loads. I have been told never to do it for the past 45 years. But, you do what ever you feel comfortable with.

[cwtebay]

Well, I finally read all 7 pages. I used to have an original 86 in 45-90. Here's what I recommend from my notes of years ago.. SLUG the barrel. this is important. Find out what the twist is. This is also important. The old guns had a twist about 1 in 35 or so. Mine wouldn't shoot anything over 350gr bullet or so with out going all wobbly. I shot the old Gould hollow point that went about 334gr out of my mould. I cast from 20-1 or 30-1. I used SPG and on hot days I also used a 1/8" lube cookie. I always used a card under the bullet when shooting BP. My experience was common when shooting BP. The first two shots would touch or nearly so. the 3rd would be out a couple inches and 4 and 5 would be out 5" to 6". Very little point in shooting any more after 5 shots with out running a wet patch down the bore followed by a couple dry ones. Blow tubing is helpful and will postpone your need to wipe by a couple shots. I also had a Uberti '76 that all of this worked on too.
I'd get rid of the bore scope, it's messing with your head.
When shooting smokeless I'd shoot the same bullet and 5744. kept the FPS at around 1400-1450-ish 2.5" to 4" 5 shot groups when I was seeing well.
ALSO, you might try wrapping the bullet 2X with Teflon plumbers tape and shrink it down with a bic lighter. Should take care of any leading and will also reduce the size of your group a bit. I always use the Teflon trick on any gun with a less than perfect bore.

That's interesting about the teflon tape. I have read that before, seeing discussion about left / right hand wrapping concerning the rifling. Does that matter? Do you see any wonky fouling from the tape? I did wrap a few 25 WCF boolits with the intent to fire them into water and see what that tape did - alas....not done yet.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[freakonaleash]

I don't recall which way I wrapped them. I was mainly doing it for a slightly pitted bore. Worked great, . It has increased the accuracy on other rifles for me too.

[indian joe]

Well, I finally read all 7 pages.
Some points here interesting
I used to have an original 86 in 45-90. Here's what I recommend from my notes of years ago.. SLUG the barrel. this is important. Find out what the twist is. This is also important. The old guns had a twist about 1 in 35 or so. Mine wouldn't shoot anything over 350gr bullet or so with out going all wobbly.
I never thought of twist being unsuitable - a bit of net research says his rifle is 1:20 so boolits up to 450 grain or so should be fine
I shot the old Gould hollow point that went about 334gr out of my mould. I cast from 20-1 or 30-1. I used SPG and on hot days I also used a 1/8" lube cookie. I always used a card under the bullet when shooting BP. My experience was common when shooting BP. The first two shots would touch or nearly so. the 3rd would be out a couple inches and 4 and 5 would be out 5" to 6". Very little point in shooting any more after 5 shots with out running a wet patch down the bore followed by a couple dry ones. Blow tubing is helpful and will postpone your need to wipe by a couple shots. I also had a Uberti '76 that all of this worked on too.

My Rifles do better than that - my Uberti 76 (45/75 with straight blackpowder) will give me 20 if I blow tube it and dont get it hot - I get some vertical stringing due to the magazine / barrel tie up (that needs sorting out!) my Chiappa '86 gets the duplex load - havent done any real long strings but shot 20 a couple times without trouble - the Caveat here is homemade powder - am convinced its cleaner to shoot than any bought stuff I have used
I'd get rid of the bore scope, it's messing with your head.
Yeah I agree with that - I have a bore scope and its handy sometimes but definitely mess with your head
When shooting smokeless I'd shoot the same bullet and 5744. kept the FPS at around 1400-1450-ish 2.5" to 4" 5 shot groups when I was seeing well.
ALSO, you might try wrapping the bullet 2X with Teflon plumbers tape and shrink it down with a bic lighter. Should take care of any leading and will also reduce the size of your group a bit. I always use the Teflon trick on any gun with a less than perfect bore.

.......

[HighUintas]

.......

IJ, do you blowtube when you shoot the duplex load?

[freakonaleash]

I'm not IJ, but I'm guessing not. I believe the duplex keeps the barrel clean.

[HighUintas]

I think I made some progress today.

I had been wondering how much having way too much neck tension when seating bullets was having an effect on leading. I had been sizing my cases with a 45-70 die as far down the case as it would go, which was oversizing the case too much. My Lyman M die that I expand the neck with has a 0.456 ( max, can't remember exactly) mandrel. When I was trying to stuff 0.459 and 0.460 bullets in there, it was extremely tight and would constantly shave lead off of the larger softish ones. So, I bought a 0.459-0.461 mandrel from baco.

Last night I worked on getting my sizing die set correctly, to where it only sized the neck of the case just enough to give the neck about 0.400 down from the mouth the same diameter or 0.001 interference fit after expanding with my new mandrel. That ensures that there's plenty of contact to keep the bullet straight down lower, and near the case mouth would give me about 0.002-0.003 interference fit.

After doing that, when I loaded some cartridges, a few of each bullet type I've been using, seating them was much much smoother and easier and did not shave any lead.

So I loaded eight rounds with 68gr 1.5F homemade powder, the 457193 spg lubed bullets from CW, a 0.020 HDPE milk jug wad, and gave it about 0.200 compression. I shot these 4 in a string,, wiping with a wet patch after 4. didn't see any lead on the patches. After all 8, I cleaned it to get it ready for the other bullets/load and checked the leading with my scope. There was almost none. A few very very minor spots, but nothing I would obsess over. I sold my magnetospeed and got a shoot through Chrono and measured these. I got between 1120 and 1175. So, I'm sure the speed probably helped! Not sure what my speeds were before because I wasn't able to measure. Accuracy was just ok. I've had a terrible migraine all day and so feeling like I was going to barf on the bench didn't help me shoot well

The other load I made for today was nearly the same duplex that gave me good results before. 7gr 4227, 65gr 2f OE, 0.020 HDPE wad, MBC #1 relubed with mod emmerts, and about 0.125" compression. This one was still accurate, even though it was 7gr 4227 and not 7.2 like before, and an hdpe wad instead of cereal box. Speeds were around 1480fps. I shot 12 of these no wiping in between. After cleaning when I got home, there was very minor leading maybe 3 inches from the throat continuing about 6-8". More than the load with the 457193, but less than what I got with this same load before.

Progress!

[indian joe]

I'm not IJ, but I'm guessing not. I believe the duplex keeps the barrel clean.

correct ---- however if I called halt for a while I would blow it again before I started another string

[HighUintas]

I think I've made some more progress!

Went to the range to test some homemade BP. So, I loaded 10 each of:

68gr OE 2f
405gr MBC w emmerts
0.022 HDPE wad
1350fps avg
Almost no leading, maybe a tiny bit just after the throat


68gr hm 1.5/2f
405gr MBC emmerts
0.022 HDPE wad
1210fps avg
A little leading right on the throat leade

The brass was sized and then expanded using my larger mandrel, so I think that has helped prevent damaging the bullet when seating and intern helped the leading issue a little