New Member and new 1886 45-90 help

[HighUintas]

One other thought though. Previously, it was stated that I need to get all the lead out of the barrel when removing it. Is that referring to every little bit that I can see when using a borescope?

There is a very very small amount that might be left in the corners of the grooves in places because it won't come out, even with 20 passes of a brush with copper chore boy and bronze wool wrapped on it. The amount that is left wouldn't make me think it would cause a problem on the next go. When it deposits in the bore during shooting it is in the grooves and on the lands.... Not just buildup from the corners

[indian joe]

One other thought though. Previously, it was stated that I need to get all the lead out of the barrel when removing it. Is that referring to every little bit that I can see when using a borescope?

There is a very very small amount that might be left in the corners of the grooves in places because it won't come out, even with 20 passes of a brush with copper chore boy and bronze wool wrapped on it. The amount that is left wouldn't make me think it would cause a problem on the next go. When it deposits in the bore during shooting it is in the grooves and on the lands.... Not just buildup from the corners

Yes that was me said that - on the rare occasion I have leaded a barrel I would not shoot it again until I had it squeaky clean (whatever that took!) In a good smooth barrel I think a good tight flannel patch does as good as anything and it will show tiny shiny flakes of lead until its clean. I reckon at this point I would get it 100% clean and then shoot again you might have your ammo sorted. This whole deal has me puzzled.

[HighUintas]

Well, I had to go out and shoot today after work for some stress relief. I wasn't able to do any more scrubbing on the bore to get the teensy bit of lead that was left (if it was lead) before going.

These rounds were 457193, 4gr 4227, 68gr 2F, a single 0.025 hdpe wad, compressed probably ballpark 0.25". Virgin brass, so the neck tension is what it would be with my 0.456 expander on the 0.460 boolit.

One thing to note on my virgin brass, is that I also chamfer the case mouth lightly. Not sure if that matters.

I think today may either provide an answer, or more questions.

The accuracy was better than last time. I had about 5 shots in 1.5" at 50 yards. The burn was a little more dirty... I looked down the bore every few shots and there was now leftover powder fouling, where I wasn't seeing any with 7gr 4227 and 65gr 2F. I wiped the bore every 5 shots or so to try to keep the fouling from throwing things off. Still saw lead on the patches.

Got home and cleaned the bore. There was about the same amount of leading as last time, throughout the barrel and not in any particular location. Lands, grooves, etc. I noticed with my borescope that there was a very scary looking deposit of lead all the way around the end of the chamber, right on the transition from chamber to leade. So, I think something is happening either with my loading (brass/lead interaction) or the size of this boolit (0.460) is possibly slightly too large for the leade and is collecting lead on the edge of the chamber mouth? I didn't notice this before... i can't remember if I inspected the chamber last time I cleaned it, but I don't think I did. Is it possible this stuff is actually HDPE from my wad?

It's kind of hard to tell, but it looked like lead to me when looking at it on my screen. Those white strings are from my patches.


Here's a picture with a fired case in the chamber after cleaning the lead out.



The other part is, I think I've got some rust spots starting in my bore... which really bugs me. I clean it within thirty minutes of finishing shooting. Water with a drop of soap in it on patches till they're clean. Then to remove the lead, I use a brush with some bronze wool and copper chore boy wrapped on it. After 15 passes, I'll wipe the bore out with a couple of wet patches, then a couple of dry patches, then oil it. So how am I getting rust? Does it look like the start of rust to you guys? After seeing this, I put a couple patches of sharp shootr tactical advantage (a copper and carbon cleaner) down the bore and my patches were bright rusty orange. Do I need to completely remove those spots with something? I've never dealt with rust in a bore... Anyway, I got some ballistol to clean it with the oil/water mix next time.

First picture is before using the cleaner. There were quite a few areas that looked a lot worse than this. Second picture is after cleaning. White splotches showed up after wiping out the cleaner with hoppes and drypatching.


This is making me feel like i've never shot a gun before haha

[indian joe]

Well, I had to go out and shoot today after work for some stress relief. I wasn't able to do any more scrubbing on the bore to get the teensy bit of lead that was left (if it was lead) before going.

These rounds were 457193, 4gr 4227, 68gr 2F, a single 0.025 hdpe wad, compressed probably ballpark 0.25". Virgin brass, so the neck tension is what it would be with my 0.456 expander on the 0.460 boolit.

One thing to note on my virgin brass, is that I also chamfer the case mouth lightly. Not sure if that matters.

I think today may either provide an answer, or more questions.

The accuracy was better than last time. I had about 5 shots in 1.5" at 50 yards. The burn was a little more dirty... I looked down the bore every few shots and there was now leftover powder fouling, where I wasn't seeing any with 7gr 4227 and 65gr 2F. I wiped the bore every 5 shots or so to try to keep the fouling from throwing things off. Still saw lead on the patches.

Got home and cleaned the bore. There was about the same amount of leading as last time, throughout the barrel and not in any particular location. Lands, grooves, etc. I noticed with my borescope that there was a very scary looking deposit of lead all the way around the end of the chamber, right on the transition from chamber to leade. So, I think something is happening either with my loading (brass/lead interaction) or the size of this boolit (0.460) is possibly slightly too large for the leade and is collecting lead on the edge of the chamber mouth? I didn't notice this before... i can't remember if I inspected the chamber last time I cleaned it, but I don't think I did. Is it possible this stuff is actually HDPE from my wad?

It's kind of hard to tell, but it looked like lead to me when looking at it on my screen. Those white strings are from my patches.


Here's a picture with a fired case in the chamber after cleaning the lead out.



The other part is, I think I've got some rust spots starting in my bore... which really bugs me. I clean it within thirty minutes of finishing shooting. Water with a drop of soap in it on patches till they're clean. Then to remove the lead, I use a brush with some bronze wool and copper chore boy wrapped on it. After 15 passes, I'll wipe the bore out with a couple of wet patches, then a couple of dry patches, then oil it. So how am I getting rust? Does it look like the start of rust to you guys? After seeing this, I put a couple patches of sharp shootr tactical advantage (a copper and carbon cleaner) down the bore and my patches were bright rusty orange. Do I need to completely remove those spots with something? I've never dealt with rust in a bore... Anyway, I got some ballistol to clean it with the oil/water mix next time.

First picture is before using the cleaner. There were quite a few areas that looked a lot worse than this. Second picture is after cleaning. White splotches showed up after wiping out the cleaner with hoppes and drypatching.


This is making me feel like i've never shot a gun before haha

Could be my eyes, could be reflections, maybe Im dreaming, have never taken pictures with a bore scope, but to me those pictures look like the bore surface is rough - little transverse marks like chatter marks across the rifling ? Whats it FEEL like after you cleaned it and put a tight flannel patch down it - compared to your other rifle?

I have a Uberti with Pedersoli barrel - they lap those in the factory - also have a Chiappa - good bore - it doesnt lead but I can feel the difference with a tight patch.
This is a Miruko / winchester? I have a Miruko/Browning, external fit and finish on my rifle was first class but attention to detail on the inside was second rate. Maybe ........?

If this was mine I would be over it by now - with the loads you are using it should not be doing it - I would be going after it with steel wool and brasso to give it some shine - I use a brass bristle brush with fine steel wool wrapped around it and keep it as tight as I can jam in there - every few minutes wrap a touch more steel wool around to keep it tight, dunk the thing in Brasso and go for it - full strokes of the rifling with a muzzle protector on the rod - half an hour should do it - I'd want the gun upside down in a cleaning cradle to do it and finish up with jewellers rough on a damp, tight patch. All of which is a bit radical - its a pretty gun - I have done several and never damaged one

I be interested to see what others think about your bore pics.

[cwtebay]

Howdy,
Man you've put in an effort!!!
Have you contacted Winchester? I'm sure they'd be interested in seeing your results. That barrel looks less than stellar to my unprofessional eye, and you should have had that thing shooting the lights out by now!
I have an 1895 miruko that was less than perfect when I got it, contacted Winchester - had a new barrel put on in less than 2 weeks.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[HighUintas]

Yes those horizontal marks are chatter marks, I think. They seem to be about average from other pictures I've seen of Browning and Winchester bores. You think I ought to call them on it?

I was saving "lapping" it as a last resort. I've done it before with a savage and marroon colored 3m pads and finished it off with JB's. Worked ok.

If you saw the slug measurements I had here, disregard those. The pictures are from the first attempt which used a ball and didn't work. I then slugged the muzzle with a .460 bullet and it measured 0.4565-0.457. Then I pushed another bullet through the whole bore from the chamber and got 0.4565-0.457.

[HighUintas]

Oh yes... How does it feel when running a patch down?

After I clean it and remove the lead, it feels pretty smooth. It doesn't feel like there's rough spots in there. It feels MUCH better than those pictures look

[indian joe]

Howdy,
Man you've put in an effort!!!
Have you contacted Winchester? I'm sure they'd be interested in seeing your results. That barrel looks less than stellar to my unprofessional eye, and you should have had that thing shooting the lights out by now!
I have an 1895 miruko that was less than perfect when I got it, contacted Winchester - had a new barrel put on in less than 2 weeks.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

So its not just me then?

[indian joe]

Yes those horizontal marks are chatter marks, I think. They seem to be about average from other pictures I've seen of Browning and Winchester bores. You think I ought to call them on it?

I was saving "lapping" it as a last resort. I've done it before with a savage and marroon colored 3m pads and finished it off with JB's. Worked ok.

If you saw the slug measurements I had here, disregard those. The pictures are from the first attempt which used a ball and didn't work. I then slugged the muzzle with a .460 bullet and it measured 0.4565-0.457. Then I pushed another bullet through the whole bore from the chamber and got 0.4565-0.457.

Where I am - back to the dealer or factory would be just too hard - could take a year - might never see the gun again - you probably already two or three hundred under current new price - If you feel comfortable doing it yourself ? thats what I would do - otherwise maybe one of the good barrel men (Hoyt etc - not a recommendation just heard his name hereabouts) might do it for you.?

[HighUintas]

Where I am - back to the dealer or factory would be just too hard - could take a year - might never see the gun again - you probably already two or three hundred under current new price - If you feel comfortable doing it yourself ? thats what I would do - otherwise maybe one of the good barrel men (Hoyt etc - not a recommendation just heard his name hereabouts) might do it for you.?

I definitely don't want to sell it. I've gotten myself attached to it and I think my wife would kill me!


I'm in Utah and their HQ is about 45 minutes from my house, so I could potentially just drive over there to talk to them in hopes it would expedite the process if they did do something about it.

I just can't see them replacing the barrel :/ worth a try though.

I do have some wiggle room on bore dimensions too. I could get on it with some 3m pads and JB's and that would make quick work of it.

I ended up selling the savage I did that to anyway because the muzzle had some type of impurity inclusion in the steel and there were monstrous pits after just a hundred rounds.

I'll have to think on it

[hithard]

Pick up a couple hundred j- words and shoot the all. Smooth that bore out and then start shooting your cast. This is a massed produced barrel not a custom. Those marks are we nothing more than peaks and valleys. You need to knock those peaks off. A bit of fowling is good as it fills those voids and allows for a seasoned bore. Just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree.

[HighUintas]

Pick up a couple hundred j- words and shoot the all. Smooth that bore out and then start shooting your cast. This is a massed produced barrel not a custom. Those marks are we nothing more than peaks and valleys. You need to knock those peaks off. A bit of fowling is good as it fills those voids and allows for a seasoned bore. Just my opinion. I'm sure many will disagree.

Are saying a bit of lead fouling is good? I was under the impression that lead in the bore is not the same as copper, where some copper fouling can help accuracy because it will fill in small imperfections, but lead is soft enough it will just continue to build up rapidly and hurt accuracy.

Either way, I did have some good accuracy with a couple of the loads. So I'm not horribly worried about it. I just don't want to have to get the copper scrubby out for the bore every 10 rounds!

My end goal here is to be able to get it to 2" groups at 100 yards and not have to use the copper scrubby to remove lead but maybe every 60 rounds or so.

[Tar Heel]

I have been shooting Pyrodex since 1977. If you clean your gun, you will not get rust. Hodgdon has given up trying to convince folks that Pyrodex residue or powder is NOT any more "corrosive" than black powder. They have flat quit because these fairy tales keep getting passed as gospel. I even wrote articles about it. Gave up.
Bottom line is:

1. Pyrodex + Water based cleaning + Light oil = No Corrosion
2. Black Powder + Water based cleaning + Light oil = No Corrosion

Either Pyrodex or Black Powder cleaned with "Goober Miracle Goop" and poor oiling = CORROSION

[HighUintas]

I have been shooting Pyrodex since 1977. If you clean your gun, you will not get rust. Hodgdon has given up trying to convince folks that Pyrodex residue or powder is NOT any more "corrosive" than black powder. They have flat quit because these fairy tales keep getting passed as gospel. I even wrote articles about it. Gave up.
Bottom line is:

1. Pyrodex + Water based cleaning + Light oil = No Corrosion
2. Black Powder + Water based cleaning + Light oil = No Corrosion

Either Pyrodex or Black Powder cleaned with "Goober Miracle Goop" and poor oiling = CORROSION

Ok. This isn't really about the rusting and I'm not trying to blame that on BP or Winchester or anything. I'm not too worried about it.

I know how to clean and oil a gun... I was just really surprised to see that considering how we'll I've been cleaning it.

After thinking about it a bit, I'm pretty darn sure it's from a galvanic reaction between the bore and leftover bits of bronze wool I was using to get the lead out. That stuff turns to dust and it's really hard to get it all out of there.

[Chill Wills]

This is directed to anyone other than HighUintas...

I like that HighUintas is not put off.
A bore scope, like a Hawkeye can (most often) make the very best of barrels look scary. After looking at a lot of barrels, the one in question looks about normal to even good for a production barrel. The one Miroku barrel I have is about the same and shoots way above expectation. I would give it a chance.

Hey, HighUnitas, your on track to putting the whole BP making/shooting/45-90 1886 project together. I am impressed.

You inspired me to load up 10 cartridges in an attempt to make a load somewhat like yours, but in a 45-70 Govt. Winchester 1886 built in about 1893. Barrel sights - 50 meters.
Bullets from the same batch, Lyman 457 193, 62 grains 2F powder, 4 grains Sr-4759, Winchester LRP, Winchester cases.

5 shots in a group. The left one and the high one are on me. Rain and the front edge of the thunder storm was rolling in and I did not do my best work here before scrambling to get everything under cover. Still, fun stuff! The snow is melting and just now we can start to get into the high country.

[HighUintas]

Thanks for the reassurance CW.

I'll have to get more pictures of my bore on here. It's not that bad.

Right now my biggest worry is getting my dang breech bolt pin back into the lever. The pin is insanely tight fitting.

I dig that target!

[freakonaleash]

I'm late to the party here. Slug the bore and go .001 over the slug. Use a lead 20-1 projectile that carries alot of lube, (SPG or DGL) probably about 350gr bullet, the 330 gould is a good one. Your 4227 "kicker" may be the culprit by sending the slug too fast into the riffling.
You aren't ever going to get 2" groups consistently from that gun. Probably more like 3-4" is average for a lever gun @ 100yds. I don't know how many shots you're counting for your groups, but the first three ought to be 2-2.5" and then it's going to open up because of the fouling. No way around that unless you wipe between every shot or use a blow tube. I'd run some jacketed bullets through it with smokeless powder to see how it shoots. Bore scopes do more harm than good in my opinion, all they do is freak people out. You can get some pretty rotten bores to shoot if you do everything right.
I didn't read all 6 pages of this , so much of what I just typed may have been covered.

[indian joe]

This is directed to anyone other than HighUintas...

I like that HighUintas is not put off.
A bore scope, like a Hawkeye can (most often) make the very best of barrels look scary. After looking at a lot of barrels, the one in question looks about normal to even good for a production barrel. The one Miroku barrel I have is about the same and shoots way above expectation. I would give it a chance.

Hey, HighUnitas, your on track to putting the whole BP making/shooting/45-90 1886 project together. I am impressed.

You inspired me to load up 10 cartridges in an attempt to make a load somewhat like yours, but in a 45-70 Govt. Winchester 1886 built in about 1893. Barrel sights - 50 meters.
Bullets from the same batch, Lyman 457 193, 62 grains 2F powder, 4 grains Sr-4759, Winchester LRP, Winchester cases.

5 shots in a group. The left one and the high one are on me. Rain and the front edge of the thunder storm was rolling in and I did not do my best work here before scrambling to get everything under cover. Still, fun stuff! The snow is melting and just now we can start to get into the high country.

Good post! I am impressed with his progress too - your shooting also -- and I reckon that high one is more likely the gun warming up than your fault - I think I have a crack with my Chiappa tomorrow for fun.

[HighUintas]

Alright. I'm thinking I'll load up some more tonight. I'm going to give it every chance I can to not lead.

While I had my bolt out, I decided to give it a short once over lapping so nice I've got plenty of wiggle room on bore dimensions. Gave it my maroon 3m pad then JB's procedure. It's looking a bit better now. Slugged again, and I get the same dimensions.

I'll take my fireformed brass and only run the neck expander to flare the mouth for low neck tension and minimal bullet damage. I'll load the 457193 bullets and use straight BP with no duplex to make sure I'm not overpowering the hardness of that lead. Probably a cereal box wad, because it took too much effort to measure those milk jug one to make sure they're the same thickness.

IJ and CW, with the straight BP, do you suggest I wipe with a dry patch between every shot? Or just breathe into the bore through the muzzle to keep fouling soft? I've not done much research into that stuff yet so I don't know how to manage it.

[indian joe]

Alright. I'm thinking I'll load up some more tonight. I'm going to give it every chance I can to not lead.

While I had my bolt out, I decided to give it a short once over lapping so nice I've got plenty of wiggle room on bore dimensions. Gave it my maroon 3m pad then JB's procedure. It's looking a bit better now. Slugged again, and I get the same dimensions.

I'll take my fireformed brass and only run the neck expander to flare the mouth for low neck tension and minimal bullet damage. I'll load the 457193 bullets and use straight BP with no duplex to make sure I'm not overpowering the hardness of that lead. Probably a cereal box wad, because it took too much effort to measure those milk jug one to make sure they're the same thickness.

IJ and CW, with the straight BP, do you suggest I wipe with a dry patch between every shot? Or just breathe into the bore through the muzzle to keep fouling soft? I've not done much research into that stuff yet so I don't know how to manage it.

Straight black - blow tube .....sounds simple huh!
I went at the whole blackpowder cartridge thing with the mindset we should be able to shoot a competitive target without cleaning between shots - - been doing it with my muzzle loaders for years and won a good share of events - - what could be so hard?
I think the blow tube is very conditions dependent - believe I over did it the first comp I shot in using it - had moved from my dry low humid environment - increased elevation 2500feet, increased humidity, lower temperature - I reckon I blew a couple of shots from maybe possibles (5) into 2 and 3 scores - I ended with a 38/50 where I was headed for 42 -44 from 50 ------CW and most of the blokes we follow here would shoot 50 on that target and not even blink but I was happy on the day and every time we shoot we learn.

Thats my Sharps 45/70 - its an old Marcheno sharps repro, carbine stock, had been neglected just a little in storage (previous owner) and a couple rust marks near the muzzle - clean every shot it was great but it leaded like crazy on those marks - three shots ok - a combination of the bore roughness and poor boolits not carrying enough lube. I eventually got tired of it and took the hacksaw to it back past the rust mark 26" now and decent boolits = no more problem. So -----I blow it every shot but just one normal exhale. Its a learning curve and everywhere and every body is gonna be a little different.

Uberti model 1876 (45/75) straight blackpowder, for the conditions I shoot in, once every third or fifth shot will keep it going ok - more to the point is keeping the shot cadence down so it doesnt get hot (thinner barrel than the sharps and 2" longer at 28") again good boolits with plenty lube and this is just a beautiful bore - mirror smooth.

Chiappa 1886 (45/70) this one I use the duplex load in (7 grains 4227 + 63 grains BP) + 45 thou HDPE wad, 335 grain modified LEE boolit (that cut down 459-405HB mold) gets right around 1545FPS at 22feet on my chrono. Its always cleaned up fine after ten or a dozen in a string. I bought this one used - it wouldnt feed a live round from the magazine at first try, I got piZZZed off, gonna take it back, then I decided to try it - made ten blackpowder reloads on new brass I had, put a tang sight on, shot it, quickly went from gonna take it back to they not getting it back !!!


so 7 shots here taken at 100yards off a standing bench with a good tang sight

first shot clean and cold is the one out of (left) the upper group

then shot three, the upper three shot group !!! wandered up for a looksee --------

Then the lower three -- needed no more convincing by that time
This is the standard international pistol target 1" between the rings, makes that top group pretty special and even the lower one is comfortably inside two inches - so that gun stays with me - maybe I got lucky ? we could hope all Chiappas shoot that good?
Sidenote here - homemade powder - and I followed up after a clean, with a ten shot chrono string that got me 9FPS extreme spread .
You bet I had a good day that day !!!
That Chiappa barrel dont look quite as nice as the Uberti but it shoots as good (well they both shoot better than I do anyway) .