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Thread: New Member and new 1886 45-90 help

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    Okay. I see you were in the top end range. The pressure is not bad but at almost 1800 FPS velocity.
    The 405 grain bullet you are using is a plain based bullet, right? I am thinking that plain based bullet backed off to around 1300 -1400 FPS may have a better chance of accuracy while not leading.
    It is a solid base bullet, but it has a very slight bevel on the bottom edge. I picked out the ones that were the cleanest, because a lot of them had extra lead junk on the bevel. I know that the base and especially the boat tail portion if damaged can cause inaccuracy, but I don't think that it can cause 18-in group inaccuracy.

    I think I agree with you on the speed. I did a little bit of searching and found some suggestions of it being velocity related when it is near the muzzle. Or maybe it could be that the bullet has run out of lube at that point. On MBCs website, I'm pretty sure I read that this bullet should be good up to about 1,800 ft per second. That load data is actually for a 29 inch barrel. My barrel being a 24 inch barrel, I would think that I wouldn't be any higher than 1,500 or 1600 ft per second. Then again, I'll have to be careful with how low I go in speed, because in 18 bhn bullet might not seal the barrel soon enough if the charge is super low.

    I don't have a bullet puller. Would the cheap inertia hammer style bullet puller you see it most stores be sufficient to get these bullets out?

    I think on the next go around, I'm going to work up some charges just below the recommended starting charge and work up to the lower starting charge. I might also make up some of the same charges I shot today and put a greased up wool felt wad behind the bullet to see if that makes any difference.

    I'm also going to shoot at the 50 yard range, because it is dang hard trying to work up an accuracy load at 100 yards with regular iron sights.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    It is a solid base bullet, but it has a very slight bevel on the bottom edge. I picked out the ones that were the cleanest, because a lot of them had extra lead junk on the bevel. I know that the base and especially the boat tail portion if damaged can cause inaccuracy, but I don't think that it can cause 18-in group inaccuracy.

    I think I agree with you on the speed. I did a little bit of searching and found some suggestions of it being velocity related when it is near the muzzle. Or maybe it could be that the bullet has run out of lube at that point. On MBCs website, I'm pretty sure I read that this bullet should be good up to about 1,800 ft per second. That load data is actually for a 29 inch barrel. My barrel being a 24 inch barrel, I would think that I wouldn't be any higher than 1,500 or 1600 ft per second. Then again, I'll have to be careful with how low I go in speed, because in 18 bhn bullet might not seal the barrel soon enough if the charge is super low.

    I don't have a bullet puller. Would the cheap inertia hammer style bullet puller you see it most stores be sufficient to get these bullets out?

    I think on the next go around, I'm going to work up some charges just below the recommended starting charge and work up to the lower starting charge. I might also make up some of the same charges I shot today and put a greased up wool felt wad behind the bullet to see if that makes any difference.

    I'm also going to shoot at the 50 yard range, because it is dang hard trying to work up an accuracy load at 100 yards with regular iron sights.
    I agree with you on the 50 yard test. I actually start at 27 to figure out where I am. My original 1886 shoots the best at 1375ish with that weight bullet. I typically use Swiss or Goex and haven't seen leading since I dropped the velocity. I use mostly coww + for hardness.
    I clean with soap and water and 3 dry patches - still runs like it was intended to.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    1700-1800FPS --you are in gascheck territory really

    why not back it up to 1600FPS level ?

    need everything spot on right when you are pushing it to the edge.

    boolit at least one thou (maybe two) oversize - others might argue but I reckon boolit fit to the bore is way more important than alloy (as far as leading goes anyway)

    you would likely done better with a full case of FFg, + poly wad - woulda got you 1550 or so and the black woulda cleaned out a heck of a lot easier than the lead .

    "How much lead is too much ?" ANY is too much and make sure you get it ALL out before you shoot again....................................
    I've got some ffg, just don't have my lube made up yet! Otherwise I would've tried it.

    Isn't 1-2 thou oversize preferred for preventing leading?

    I bet I'm not at more than 1600fps because that data is for 29.5" barrels.

  4. #44
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    At the risk of sounding like a contrarian, my bet is that the load is full velocity in your barrel. That powder does not need but 16 inches or so to max out. Like a 22rf, at some point, longer barrels reduce velocity (a little). Only a chronograph of both lengths can tell. That is just my bet.

    It is just my opinion, I think that 42grain load under the 405 grain bullet going 1750 1800 FPS is a real T-Rex killer. You had to hold on to that 1886 real tight to shoot them.

    Yes. The hammer type puller will get the bullets back out. I've had to do that too.

    Figuring it out is half the fun.
    Chill Wills

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    At the risk of sounding like a contrarian, my bet is that the load is full velocity in your barrel. That powder does not need but 16 inches or so to max out. Like a 22rf, at some point, longer barrels reduce velocity (a little). Only a chronograph of both lengths can tell. That is just my bet.

    It is just my opinion, I think that 42grain load under the 405 grain bullet going 1750 1800 FPS is a real T-Rex killer. You had to hold on to that 1886 real tight to shoot them.

    Yes. The hammer type puller will get the bullets back out. I've had to do that too.

    Figuring it out is half the fun.
    Shoot. I bet you're right! There isn't any way 43gr of that fast a burnin powder won't be all burnt up and pushing the boolit quick by 24". Man I bet those things might be smokin out of there. I have a magnetospeed Sporter, but there's no way to get it to work with this barrel and full length mag.

    I finally got all the lead out of my barrel this evening.

    I'll have to drop the charge a bit for next week and we'll see what happens. It certainly is fun figuring it out. Wish I had enough time to cast my own, make my own bp, etc etc

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    I've got some ffg, just don't have my lube made up yet! Otherwise I would've tried it.

    Isn't 1-2 thou oversize preferred for preventing leading?
    yep - thats what I wuz sayin - by fit to the bore I mean fat enough to be sure of complete fill of the grooves - I like 2 thou oversize
    I bet I'm not at more than 1600fps because that data is for 29.5" barrels.
    ......

  7. #47
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    After looking up some information on hardness and related pressure tolerances, I've found that with these 18 bhn boolits the max pressure I should put on them would be about 23,000 psi, or around 22,500 cup. Cross referencing a couple of load data charts for my cartridge in 4570 cartridge that has a more similar bullet, I think loading this powder at about 38 grains would keep me in that ballpark! I think I'll work around that charge next time.

    One other thought though... If it were an issue of too high of pressure for that bullet, wouldn't the letting be spread all throughout the barrel especially where it would reach Max pressure, closer to the throat? Since this is all within the first three or four inches of the muzzle that seems like it could be more high velocity induced or the lube failing. Thoughts?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighUintas View Post
    After looking up some information on hardness and related pressure tolerances, I've found that with these 18 bhn boolits the max pressure I should put on them would be about 23,000 psi, or around 22,500 cup. Cross referencing a couple of load data charts for my cartridge in 4570 cartridge that has a more similar bullet, I think loading this powder at about 38 grains would keep me in that ballpark! I think I'll work around that charge next time.

    One other thought though... If it were an issue of too high of pressure for that bullet, wouldn't the letting be spread all throughout the barrel especially where it would reach Max pressure, closer to the throat? Since this is all within the first three or four inches of the muzzle that seems like it could be more high velocity induced or the lube failing. Thoughts?
    if it was a blackpowder load doing it we would tell you "not enough lube"

    I run cast boolits in a 348 at full throttle but they gaschecked (225 grain x 2350FPS)

    Always thought and been told 1800 was top end for a plain base boolit and then needed everything on your side

    Proly add a bit to those numbers for a really smooth lapped bore (Pedersoli)

  9. #49
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    Here is a shot of some load data for the 45/90 out the Complete Reloading Guide by John E. Traister and Robert Traister Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #50
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    Well I tried again. I got all the lead out of my bore with some copper chore boy and loaded the same bullets with 38.0gr 5744. Leading very badly after a few rounds to where I think my 6th or 7th started to keyhole a little bit. Not quite a keyhole but it was definitely elongated.

    Came home and looked in the bore and it was either about the same or worse. There was smaller amounts of lead closer to the throat throughout the bore, but the majority was near the muzzle. Same deal last time.

    So I don't know what the deal is. Should I back the charge down even lower? 36gr?

    Someone told me they thought the lube was failing. Could that be it?

    I got my lube made up, delubed some of these bullets, and relubed them. It's the emmerts with 10% lanolin.

    Should I try the relubed bullet with 38gr 5744?

    Should I just load some BP with these relubed bullets? If I did that, I was thinking I'd punch my wads from a cereal box. That should work, right?

  11. #51
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    I think those Lazer cast bullets are too hard and the powder charge is too much = leading. You need some joy and success here.
    I still think a good starting point is about 28 grains of the AA-5744 and a softer .459" bullet. You can try the powder charge under the Lazer cast and that may work better too. What diameter is the Lazer cast? Yes, de-lubing the Lazer cast and using the home-made Emmerts lube can't hurt either.

    Really! Back off the load and you may at least start to see some groups and no leading. From there, you can work on the rest. I will send you some better bullets to try, but cut the load down so it has a chance.
    Chill Wills

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I think those Lazer cast bullets are too hard and the powder charge is too much = leading. You need some joy and success here.
    I still think a good starting point is about 28 grains of the AA-5744 and a softer .459" bullet. You can try the powder charge under the Lazer cast and that may work better too. What diameter is the Lazer cast? Yes, de-lubing the Lazer cast and using the home-made Emmerts lube can't hurt either.

    Really! Back off the load and you may at least start to see some groups and no leading. From there, you can work on the rest. I will send you some better bullets to try, but cut the load down so it has a chance.
    Well my groups were at least closer to being groups this time around! I also shot at 50 yds which made it easier to hit the paper to gauge it.

    The bullets are actually Missouri bullet company buffalo#1 at .459. They claim a hardness of 18bhn. I will say, their quality is very questionable. I've had to uniform the beveled edge on the base on at least 50% of them because they have had large globs of lead there. And in some cases I can see small holes in the surface around the grooves as if there are voids inside.

    I'll definitely try loading them down to 28gr. I'll also load some with my emmerts at 28gr and maybe 38gr with emmerts.

    Even though my accuracy has been unbelievably bad, it's still a hoot to shoot!!! I love it. I put on my Sims slip on pad today that I had laying around and it helped a ton.

    I'm working on loading some BP with these freshly lubed bullets just so I can experience the joy of the smoke sulfur next time. I'm hoping putting them in boiling water to deliver knocked the hardness down a bit so they obturate well enough with the BP. We'll see.

    Next time, I'll try a few of the 28gr 5744 and some of the BP loads.

    I love this gun!

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I think those Lazer cast bullets are too hard and the powder charge is too much = leading. You need some joy and success here.
    I still think a good starting point is about 28 grains of the AA-5744 and a softer .459" bullet. You can try the powder charge under the Lazer cast and that may work better too. What diameter is the Lazer cast? Yes, de-lubing the Lazer cast and using the home-made Emmerts lube can't hurt either.

    Really! Back off the load and you may at least start to see some groups and no leading. From there, you can work on the rest. I will send you some better bullets to try, but cut the load down so it has a chance.
    Please don't take this as critical - but how does too hard cast= leading?

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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwtebay View Post
    Please don't take this as critical - but how does too hard cast= leading?
    Good question and thank you for asking the way you did.
    I guess the first answer is hard bullets don’t= leading, …automatically.

    Plenty of load combinations work well with hard cast bullets and would not work at a softer BHN. But, I think the hard nature of these bullets and maybe the lack of good fit may be a problem. These commercial cast bullets have a reputation of being very hard, having basic crayon wax for lube and the end user can’t control diameter or quality. In other words, they may not be very good bullets due to fit, hardness and lube for any and all rifles. Or, they may work just great in other rifle and loads.

    Because in this case, it is reported the accuracy is non-existent and the barrel is leading, I am guessing that in part, the bullet fit is not the best and gas is getting around the bullet base at some point. Very hard bullets don’t give at all to help seal up the bore. These same bullets may (or not) produce acceptable results in this rifle driven at velocities between 1100 and 1300 fps only because the pressures are not driving the gases past the base. Or, something as simple as a fiber wad under the bullet could improve this heavy 38 grain load. Think fiber gas check. However, I would not do it using smokeless powder as there is a chance of the fiber wad getting pushed down on the top of the powder instead of remaining next to the bullet base.

    Experienced cast bullet handloaders tend to go back to what works, a base-line, when starting with a new rifle. A softer, well designed bullet, completely filled out such is the classic Lyman 457 193 or the old time 45-90 bullet 457 191 at about 300 grains would be handy to start with. Softer bullets do tent to expand a little in some cases, helping to seal the bore. I’ve offered to send some bullets to the OP. I would like to see him have some success.
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 04-09-2021 at 12:16 PM.
    Chill Wills

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I’ve offered to send some bullets to the OP. I would like to see him have some success.
    Yes, thanks for the offer!! I'll play around a little bit more with these bullets I have to see if I can make any progress. If it's not looking good I'll let you know.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I’ve offered to send some bullets to the OP. I would like to see him have some success.
    Yes, thanks for the offer!! I'll play around a little bit more with these bullets I have to see if I can make any progress. If it's not looking good I'll let you know.

  17. #57
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    A 45-90 case is large, resulting in a relatively small amount of powder in a large case. Yes, there’s Trail Boss and you may try that, but for gnat’s butt accuracy on a consistent basis, nothing beats black powder. The case is filled 100% and extreme spreads of 10 f/s are not uncommon. The only advantage T7, Pyrodex and other substitutes have is they’re stocked on the shelf like smokeless powders. For black, you have to look around or go on-line as few shops will go through the storage requirements. Loading black seems intimidating but a few fundamentals simplify the process.
    1. Determine cartridge OAL
    2. Load various charges between 85 to 90 grains (maybe less than 85 if you can get the seated bullet touching powder column)
    3. Use a drop tube +/- 24” or having none, vibrate the cases to settle the powder.
    4. Place waxed wad over powder
    4. Compress the power to the point you determined in step 1 with bullet installed. Compression can be done with a die or even a dowel rod in a seating die. Your compressed depth will stay the same for 85 or 90 grains.
    5. Using a lubed bullet with any of the thousand black powder recipes, seat the bullet.
    5 (a). If your bullet doesn’t carry enough lube, saturate WOOL wads in the lube and place under the bullet. If you do this, you probably will need to reduce the powder charge.
    6. Crimp your bullet unless a single shot then it’s optional
    7. After shooting, clean with a water based solvent (water works great), 1:10 Ballistol and water on your patches. 8-10 normally does it for me.
    8. Dry barrel with a couple cotton patches, followed by the non-petroleum oil of your choice (Ballistol probably most common because if any water remains, it emulsifiers and evaporates off, leaving the Ballistol behind)

    Best lube I’ve found in Gato Feo’s #1. By weight, 2 parts mutton tallow, 2 parts canning paraffin and 1 part bees wax
    Last edited by Castaway; 04-10-2021 at 04:50 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    Good question and thank you for asking the way you did.
    I guess the first answer is hard bullets don’t= leading, …automatically.

    Plenty of load combinations work well with hard cast bullets and would not work at a softer BHN. But, I think the hard nature of these bullets and maybe the lack of good fit may be a problem. These commercial cast bullets have a reputation of being very hard, having basic crayon wax for lube and the end user can’t control diameter or quality. In other words, they may not be very good bullets due to fit, hardness and lube for any and all rifles. Or, they may work just great in other rifle and loads.

    Because in this case, it is reported the accuracy is non-existent and the barrel is leading, I am guessing that in part, the bullet fit is not the best and gas is getting around the bullet base at some point. Very hard bullets don’t give at all to help seal up the bore. These same bullets may (or not) produce acceptable results in this rifle driven at velocities between 1100 and 1300 fps only because the pressures are not driving the gases past the base. Or, something as simple as a fiber wad under the bullet could improve this heavy 38 grain load. Think fiber gas check. However, I would not do it using smokeless powder as there is a chance of the fiber wad getting pushed down on the top of the powder instead of remaining next to the bullet base.

    Experienced cast bullet handloaders tend to go back to what works, a base-line, when starting with a new rifle. A softer, well designed bullet, completely filled out such is the classic Lyman 457 193 or the old time 45-90 bullet 457 191 at about 300 grains would be handy to start with. Softer bullets do tent to expand a little in some cases, helping to seal the bore. I’ve offered to send some bullets to the OP. I would like to see him have some success.
    Thank you for the excellent explanation!


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  19. #59
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    Hot damn. I decided to load some BP and came to the range. After a fouler, first 3 shots are touching! And it smells nice. I may not go back to smokeless

  20. #60
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    Now that I have to clean the BP from my bore and cases, two questions:

    For the cases, is a tumbler or sonic cleaner really necessary? Will a soak in soapy water with vinegar and then a brushing do the trick?

    For the bore, how about soapy water on patches then dry patch then a coat of oil? I haven't been able to find any ballistol locally, so I can't do the 1:10 ballistol water mix I've seen recommended.

    Here's a picture of my shooting for today. 15 rounds. One of the flyers is a fowler, one of the other terrible flyers is just a bad pulled shot, and some of the others that widen out the group were later in the session, and I think there was a little bit of leading starting. I'm not sure if this is due to the hardness of the bullet, or the way some of my rounds were loaded. The cartridges later in the session definitely shaved bits of the lead off when seating the bullet, so I'm wondering if the shade lead inside the case got deposited in the bore. Don't know, but we'll see how much leading is in the barrel when I clean it out.
    And yes these shots were at 50 yards. Might be a whole lot better if I wasn't using a regular buckhornClick image for larger version. 

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check