New Member and new 1886 45-90 help

[farmbif]

has Pyrodex been my problem all along? never knew it was more corrosive than others , I have 3 cap and ball's that all suffer corrosion even after extensive cleaning and oiling. I have a new engraved 44 that I have yet to use because of corrosion problems of the past

[country gent]

I use Olde Ensforde a lot or swiss. wipe and clean at the range with windex ( vinegar) then 20-1 ballistol when I get home. If leading is present (rarely) it gets some hoppes or a solvent for the leading. Then lightly oiled. For the bore I use a patch with emmerts improved worked into it to preserve. 2 passes with the tight fitting impregnated patch then 1 with a clean patch to level thin coating down. I have also used the impregnated patch to wipe the outside metal down with a thin coat. No rust and lasts long term pretty well. I have one lever action I shoot BP in, a originally Henry in 44-40. I clean it upside down as mentioned above in a previous post. I use the same method as I described with itAll the others are 74 sharos hepburns rolling blocks Brocharts or stevens 44 1/2 reproductions.

If you dont want to get fancy with a cleaning cradle, A heavy corrugated card board box makes a decent one with a couple towels. Fold ends open and tape in place. Cut 2 vees one in each end the barrels need to be lower so muzzle is down hill, gravity then takes care of solvents then. Drape a soft towel over each vee when using and a small rag in the action and the box holds it in place.

Most bulet lubes SPG, emmerts, emmerts Improved, and most others are wax based with oils and lubes all good preservatives as well as lubes. The Emmerts Improved I make is as follows

50% Beeswax
40% unsalted crisco, vegtable shortening
5% anhydrous lanolin, The paste style. This used to be referred to as wool oil
5% canola oil, this was a steam oil back in the day.
To this I add a small amount of murphies oil soap 3-4 drops to act as an emulsifier and blend the ingredients.

with the Ingredients its all not only good lubes and carriers but also things used to preserve.

[Wayne Smith]

Don't think 'corrosive' when thinking about BP - it is not. Think 'hydroscopic' - i.e. the residue absorbs water. Water contains oxygen which causes oxidation. Control the water, the residue that absorbs water, and you control corrosion. What is the best way to remove that residue?
Water!! Water dissolves the residue. Add some water soluble oil (ballistol) and you have some metal protection. When you think it through it's not hard. The big issue for lever actions is keeping all that out of the action and the easy way to do this is to use a large enough load so that brass expands and seals the chamber - voila - it all goes down the barrel and that's all you have to clean.

[HighUintas]

Dont be so scared of blackpowder - seems to me you've been listening to keyboard warrior xpirts that never shot the stuff - Its an easy clean - with a 45/90 the chance of residue in the action is remote - keep it well oiled and even if a teensy bit gets in the innards - aint gonna rust it. I have half a dozen lever guns I shoot blackpowder in, never have pulled one down specifically to clean out blackpowder residue from the action - my 76 has been going four years blackpowder only - I clean the barrel after every shoot, wipe the outside with an oily cloth - done in five minutes - Its just as purty as your new 86. You mentioned substitutes ? do not use pyrodex its way more corrosive

This is great, thank you! I know very well to stay away from pyrodex! I was just thinking about T7 because it's available in stores. If I can find some BP locally I'll definitely try it.

I use Olde Ensforde a lot or swiss. wipe and clean at the range with windex ( vinegar) then 20-1 ballistol when I get home. If leading is present (rarely) it gets some hoppes or a solvent for the leading. Then lightly oiled. For the bore I use a patch with emmerts improved worked into it to preserve. 2 passes with the tight fitting impregnated patch then 1 with a clean patch to level thin coating down. I have also used the impregnated patch to wipe the outside metal down with a thin coat. No rust and lasts long term pretty well. I have one lever action I shoot BP in, a originally Henry in 44-40. I clean it upside down as mentioned above in a previous post. I use the same method as I described with itAll the others are 74 sharos hepburns rolling blocks Brocharts or stevens 44 1/2 reproductions.

If you dont want to get fancy with a cleaning cradle, A heavy corrugated card board box makes a decent one with a couple towels. Fold ends open and tape in place. Cut 2 vees one in each end the barrels need to be lower so muzzle is down hill, gravity then takes care of solvents then. Drape a soft towel over each vee when using and a small rag in the action and the box holds it in place.

Most bulet lubes SPG, emmerts, emmerts Improved, and most others are wax based with oils and lubes all good preservatives as well as lubes. The Emmerts Improved I make is as follows

50% Beeswax
40% unsalted crisco, vegtable shortening
5% anhydrous lanolin, The paste style. This used to be referred to as wool oil
5% canola oil, this was a steam oil back in the day.
To this I add a small amount of murphies oil soap 3-4 drops to act as an emulsifier and blend the ingredients.

with the Ingredients its all not only good lubes and carriers but also things used to preserve.

So are you using the emmerts improved for bullet lube and metal protection?

Don't think 'corrosive' when thinking about BP - it is not. Think 'hydroscopic' - i.e. the residue absorbs water. Water contains oxygen which causes oxidation. Control the water, the residue that absorbs water, and you control corrosion. What is the best way to remove that residue?
Water!! Water dissolves the residue. Add some water soluble oil (ballistol) and you have some metal protection. When you think it through it's not hard. The big issue for lever actions is keeping all that out of the action and the easy way to do this is to use a large enough load so that brass expands and seals the chamber - voila - it all goes down the barrel and that's all you have to clean.

I haven't used ballistol, but I have some crc sp350 I used for my other rifles. It's a great long lasting oil that doesn't run or turn to oil varnish.



So I did find some BP available through Buffalo arms, but with the hazmat it makes it a fair bit more expensive. Does anyone happen to know where I might find some in store in Utah? I know Doug's shoot sports carries it, but they're out and it's the same scarcity as smokeless.

If I do order some from Buffalo arms, I was considering the OE FFF since they recommend it for 45-90. I'm wondering why most people seem to go with FF instead?

I found some 405gr Missouri bullet company that I ordered. They're lubes for smokeless, so I'll just have to remove it and relube, and then I'll also have some for smokeless if I find the powder.

I'm excited to get this thing smoking!

[HighUintas]

Also, I did order 5 pounds of 5744 from hodgdons site yesterday, but it ended up being $50/lb after the shipping charge! So I had to cancel that order.

[south.net]

HU,
one thing I'd like to caution you about. When melting the smokeless lube out of the bullets and replacing it with a b/p lube, if the lube grooves aren't deep enough, the bullets may not have enough space for "enough" b/p lube. They may run out of lube before the bullets leave the barrel. Happened to me when I went to the dark side, although I was shooting 44-40 in CAS. That worked ok in the pistols but not the rifle. I used a Uberti '73 with a 24" bbl. The lube would run out in about the last 6-8 inches of the barrel. Just about every 2-3 stages I'd use a handgun length rod with a brass brush , a squirt of Ballistol and about 10 push, twist, pulls it was ok. Pushed a damp patch through the barrel from the front with the rifle turned upside down. That was before I found Bore- snakes. Once I got the proper b/p bullets with the deep enough grooves for b/p lube I could shoot all day. You can shoot b/p lubed bullets with b/p or smokeless ,,,,, just not the other way around. As long as you keep that little damp ring around your muzzle , you're good to go. Just read your post.
YMMV, good shooting,
Isom

[HighUintas]

HU,
one thing I'd like to caution you about. When melting the smokeless lube out of the bullets and replacing it with a b/p lube, if the lube grooves aren't deep enough, the bullets may not have enough space for "enough" b/p lube. They may run out of lube before the bullets leave the barrel. Happened to me when I went to the dark side, although I was shooting 44-40 in CAS. That worked ok in the pistols but not the rifle. I used a Uberti '73 with a 24" bbl. The lube would run out in about the last 6-8 inches of the barrel. Just about every 2-3 stages I'd use a handgun length rod with a brass brush , a squirt of Ballistol and about 10 push, twist, pulls it was ok. Pushed a damp patch through the barrel from the front with the rifle turned upside down. That was before I found Bore- snakes. Once I got the proper b/p bullets with the deep enough grooves for b/p lube I could shoot all day. You can shoot b/p lubed bullets with b/p or smokeless ,,,,, just not the other way around. As long as you keep that little damp ring around your muzzle , you're good to go. Just read your post.
YMMV, good shooting,
Isom

Thanks for the info!

I had seen some info on that issue. The grooves look fairly large on the ones I have on order... The MBC buffalo #1. I guess we'll see when I get them.

I had planned on duplexing with 4227 and then also making some grease cookies if needed, so hopefully that will work if the grooves aren't quite big enough.

[Rrusse111]

I have one of these in a Miroku build TD, I would NEVER consider running BP through it. Just use 45/70 data to reload, with the longer/bigger case you won't have any problems. Starline brass and boolits in the 3-400gr range and you'll never wear it out. BP is for people who want to spend more time cleaning than shooting.

[veeman]

BP is for people who want to spend more time cleaning than shooting.

Ever shot Black Powder? Very easy and quick to clean. But I guess you'd know that if you did.

[Rrusse111]

Short answer, yes, I have shot it. My original comment still stands. Messy, dirty, explosive, and corrosive, give me smokeless every time.

[Chill Wills]

Short answer, yes, I have shot it. My original comment still stands. Messy, dirty, explosive, and corrosive, give me smokeless every time.

Wow! Who knew?

I shoot one to two 25 lb cases a year in cartridge arms, rifles. My experience is very different.

[indian joe]

Wow! Who knew?

I shoot one to two 25 lb cases a year in cartridge arms, rifles. My experience is very different.

Mine too
Cleaning blackpowder guns is easy and quick (I bet we could put all the BP 111 shot in his life in a small teacup)
We have Uberti blackpowder rifles, been shot regular, made in the late 1970's still got almost 100% outside finish and mint bores - I can have one of those cleaned and back in the rack in five minutes. The boy is blowin smoke.........

[cwtebay]

Short answer, yes, I have shot it. My original comment still stands. Messy, dirty, explosive, and corrosive, give me smokeless every time.

And..... hornet's nest officially kicked.
What I enjoy about this forum is that so many people have vastly different experience! And I also enjoy how (generally) folks respect other folks' experience.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Rrusse111]

Lol, hornet's nest ehh. You fellers do what ever you want. Have fun, or next I'll bring up politics,,,,,,,,

[HighUintas]

Haha I see there's some strong opinions on black powder in both directions! Well here's my experience from today!

I loaded up 20 rounds, shot at 100 yd, hit the 8x11 paper twice haha.

What a joyful and painful experience that was! I'll be buying myself a shoulder pad very soon.

Anyway, I ended up finding that I had a crap load of lead, or what I think is a lot of lead, in my barrel. I am thinking that's likely why the accuracy was so terrible. I was hoping y'all could shed some light on the leadding issue. First of all, how much lead is too much lead?

41.3-42.5gr 5744, 4 rounds each, 0.3gr apart
Jamison brass, virgin, 2.396", sized with 45-70FL die, no expander, expanded neck with the Lyman neck expander, die, seated to crimp groove, medium crimp with Lee FCD
MBC buffalo #1 405gr, .459", they say it's 18bhn... It's the 92/6/2 alloy
Fed 210 primer

I didn't have a chrono on it.

No picture of groups, cause they weren't groups!! Haha

Nearly all of the lead is near the muzzle and it seems like there's a lot.

Is the bullet too hard/soft for that powder and charge? Anything obvious I have done wrong or should change/try?

[Chill Wills]

I don't have data for that load in the 45-90 so what follows is all opinion. That 40+ grain load behind a 405 grain bullet is going to be a very powerful load and maybe too fast for accuracy. Perhaps cutting the load a full 10 grains would get you going with some kind of group.

[Rrusse111]

"No picture of groups, cause they weren't groups!! Haha
Nearly all of the lead is near the muzzle and it seems like there's a lot."

Kroil will help in removing the lead.

[HighUintas]

I don't have data for that load in the 45-90 so what follows is all opinion. That 40+ grain load behind a 405 grain bullet is going to be a very powerful load and maybe too fast for accuracy. Perhaps cutting the load a full 10 grains would get you going with some kind of group.

Here it is.

[Chill Wills]

Okay. I see you were in the top end range. The pressure is not bad but at almost 1800 FPS velocity.
The 405 grain bullet you are using is a plain based bullet, right? I am thinking that plain based bullet backed off to around 1300 -1400 FPS may have a better chance of accuracy while not leading.

[indian joe]

1700-1800FPS --you are in gascheck territory really

why not back it up to 1600FPS level ?

need everything spot on right when you are pushing it to the edge.

boolit at least one thou (maybe two) oversize - others might argue but I reckon boolit fit to the bore is way more important than alloy (as far as leading goes anyway)

you would likely done better with a full case of FFg, + poly wad - woulda got you 1550 or so and the black woulda cleaned out a heck of a lot easier than the lead .

"How much lead is too much ?" ANY is too much and make sure you get it ALL out before you shoot again....................................