New Member and new 1886 45-90 help

[HighUintas]

Hello All,

I have read some of the threads on here before just coming across them in web searches, and now have a reason to post!

About me: I grew up hunting since age 8 with my family and have always used a 12ga slug gun until moving about 5 years ago. I've been reloading for my hunting rifle for a couple years and just decided to have it turned into a 30-284 because... Well I think it will be an awesome cartridge. So, I also like obscure-ish cartridges. I always wanted to be a cowboy growing up and I finally got myself a lever gun!!

I purchased this dandy yesterday at a local store... Winchester 1886 Deluxe 45-90. It's not an original, but it's beautiful and an interesting cartridge that I can't buy ammo for!!



So, I'm hoping to get some help in determining the easiest route to get started loading for it. There's so many nuances to loading straight wall old school cartridges that I didn't know about. It's a bit overwhelming, especially due to all components being scarce and this cartridge not being a saami.

So, what's the easiest route?
Smokeless and jacketed?
Smokeless and hard cast lead?
BP and hard cast?

My thoughts:
BP is much easier to source
I have no idea how to break down a lever gun to adequately clean the innards after shooting
I can't find any hard cast bullets in stock that aren't prelubed for smokeless
The thought of using a filler for the extra space when using smokeless is scary
I can't find any 45-90 dies, but can apparently use 45-70 dies if set up correctly
I definitely can't find any brass... I think that's the major Crux right now

Any help is appreciated and I'm excited to start learning here!

[Chill Wills]

Starline for brass
You don't have to take the rifle down to clean BP. Just turn it upside down in the cleaning cradle so anything drops out.
Almost any lead alloy will work to cast your own but on the softer side is good for Springfield trapdoor level loads.
Keep you loads on the trapdoor level and neck sizing or a 45-70 dies set will do it all.

If you get hard up for a mold, PM me and I can get you going with something so you can shoot. Assuming you have primers and all.

[veeman]

First, nice looking rifle, got some nice grain in that stock. Not having looked for anything on your list of things you need, if it were me, I would start with the usual places for the bare essentials. Midway, Ebay, gunbroker, may or probably won't have these day would be the start. Then I would go to my favorite forum classified and simply ask for what you need, "WTB" You'll probably get most of what you need in short order. Google 45/90, read up on what you find so you know what to ask for. Slug your bore so you know what size bullets you need. .458/.459 would be normal. READ A MANUAL! lol The load info you need is there. Be patient with your loading, choose your components for what you want to shoot. Then try what works best in your rifle. and build what works till you find the sweet load. Should only take one lifetime.

[pietro]

.

Welcome to the dance ! !

Here's a few Threads on loading for the .45-90 Winchester 1886:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...inchester-1886

https://www.shootersforum.com/thread...-45-90.231327/

https://winchestercollector.org/foru...885-high-wall/

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...ter-1886-45-90

[JFE]

Welcome to the forum.

Congrats on your new levergun. No doubt you will find what you need eventually.

Data is available in Lyman’s reloading manual. Most of the published data available are held to operating pressures of older firearms but even these have enough power to satisfy most users. If you are considering mostly low power loads then Trailboss and AA5744 are good powders if you don’t want to use fillers. That steel crescent buttplate will likely temper your enthusiasm for heavy loads.

The good thing about the 45/90 in the modern Winchester is the faster rifling twist compared to the originals. I have slugged a few Miroku made Winchester 45/70 barrels and they measure 0.457 groove diameter and have fairly deep rifling.

[HighUintas]

Thanks for the offer!

I feel as though casting them self with be down the line somewhere, maybe next year or so. I'm looking to make the start as easy as possible!

So if I have slightly higher pressure loads that are on the lowish end of listed loads for 1895 guns, will that still blow the brass out enough that I'd need to go with an actual 45-90 die?

[HighUintas]

First, nice looking rifle, got some nice grain in that stock. Not having looked for anything on your list of things you need, if it were me, I would start with the usual places for the bare essentials. Midway, Ebay, gunbroker, may or probably won't have these day would be the start. Then I would go to my favorite forum classified and simply ask for what you need, "WTB" You'll probably get most of what you need in short order. Google 45/90, read up on what you find so you know what to ask for. Slug your bore so you know what size bullets you need. .458/.459 would be normal. READ A MANUAL! lol The load info you need is there. Be patient with your loading, choose your components for what you want to shoot. Then try what works best in your rifle. and build what works till you find the sweet load. Should only take one lifetime.

Thanks! I do have a couple of WTB posts out there on forums. I've got the Lee loading manual and Sierra's, but they only have smokeless loads for 45-70. I think I read somewhere that an edition of Lyman has some 45-90 loads, is that right? Any others you might know of?

Yes I'd like to take my time in sourcing components, I'm just not sure if it's easiest to start with smokeless, BP, lead, or jacketed...

[HighUintas]

.

Welcome to the dance ! !

Here's a few Threads on loading for the .45-90 Winchester 1886:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...inchester-1886

https://www.shootersforum.com/thread...-45-90.231327/

https://winchestercollector.org/foru...885-high-wall/

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...ter-1886-45-90

Thanks for the links! I'll get on reading them

[HighUintas]

Welcome to the forum.

Congrats on your new levergun. No doubt you will find what you need eventually.

Data is available in Lyman’s reloading manual. Most of the published data available are held to operating pressures of older firearms but even these have enough power to satisfy most users. If you are considering mostly low power loads then Trailboss and AA5744 are good powders if you don’t want to use fillers. That steel crescent buttplate will likely temper your enthusiasm for heavy loads.

The good thing about the 45/90 in the modern Winchester is the faster rifling twist compared to the originals. I have slugged a few Miroku made Winchester 45/70 barrels and they measure 0.457 groove diameter and have fairly deep rifling.

Thanks! Does the Lyman have 45-90 loads? I was assuming the groove diameter would be pretty close to .458 since it's a new mfg, so that is good to know

[pietro]

.

Keep in mind that the .45-90 case is exactly the same as the .45-70 case, except a bit longer to allow for the bulkier BP loads.

Unlike smokeless powder, BP is very forgiving and the 1886 Winchester/Miroku can certainly tolerate a case full.

The nice thing about your .45-90 M-1886 is that it will cycle cartridges longer than the .45-70 version will (maybe a different lifter ? IDK ), if not your shoulder.

FWIW, I've long limited the boolits I use in my .45-70 to 350gr, max.

YMMV - especially because you could possibly have to deal with a roaming Grizzly bear in your area.

.

[country gent]

I load for the 45-90 in a C Sharps Hepburn. 34" barrel. I load Black Powder and a 550 grn grease groove bullet or a 525 grn PP bullet. Loaded with back powder no filler is needed. The powder takes all the room up and then some.

I cast from 20-1 lead tin for both bullets. SPG lube or emmerts improved. Very little to no leading.
I use a .060 napa rubber fiber wad between bullet and powder to protect base of bullet.
I normally use Olde Ensforde 1 1/2 F in a charge that fills case to base of bullet and around .090 compression with wad. ( Brass varies so you need to find what works in your cases)
Being a singe shot I dont crimp and run a very light neck tension.

To work up a BP load I start with a powder charge that is no compression no air space. test fire and chronograph. Watch fouling also. with grease grooves you want to see a greasy dirty star on the muzzle. As the load gets to where it needs to be compression wise fouling drops extreme spread and standard deviation drops.

I usually work up in 2 grain increments to the 1150-1200 fps range then look for best accuracy testing at the mid point if needed.

My hepburn weights around 13 lbs and a full BP silhouette match is a long day with these heavy bullets, but do they ring the rams at 500+ yds. In your rifle ( not because its a lever action, but it is lighter) I would look at a lighter bullet. Also the twist rate in the barrel will determine bullet length. My hepburn is 1-18 twist

[sharps4590]

You can use 45-70 dies for the '90, (2.4 case). I've been using them for the '90 since 1995 in a Shiloh Sharps, Montana Rough Rider. I also use them for the 45-2.6. The 45-90 WCF used a bullet in the 350 gr. range. Personally, I wouldn't bother with anything less than the 405-420 gr.

The book "Big Bores" has a stack of loads for the 45-90, smokeless and black. Lyman's 1958 cast bullet manual has 45-90 loading data.

country gent's info might as well have been written by me. Only difference is I use a card wad and 25-1 alloy. Basically insignificant.

[JFE]

Thanks! Does the Lyman have 45-90 loads? I was assuming the groove diameter would be pretty close to .458 since it's a new mfg, so that is good to know

The 49th Lyman manual has 45/90 data (all cast bullets) and an earlier one I have (42nd) has jacketed loads as well. If you PM your email address I can scan and send you the Lyman data and some articles on the 45/90.

[farmbif]

me personally would not let corrosive powder, black powder or substitutes, anywhere near such a beautiful rifle. 4198 or reloder7 will work just fine, every black powder gun ive have ever owned ended up getting some corrosion no matter how well I cleaned it or oiled it.
and that sure is a beautiful rifle.
I would get new brass from starline, a set of Lyman dies, a nice mould or 2 from mp or accurate, you could start out with a lee push trough sizing die, if not wanting to invest in a lube sizer, and there is all kinds of instructions on this site for tumble lubing or powder coating. if your not good at scrounging wheel weights or other lead alloys rotometals has plenty of good alloys that are nice and clean and easy to use. you can get a dipping ladle and melt alloy over a propane burner, hotplate or other heat source a thrift store cast iron or stainless pot or invest in a lee bottom pour furnace to start out.
welcome to the club and thanks for sharing photos of your fine looking rifle

[cwtebay]

Nice looking rifle man!!! I'll bet you enjoy your journey with it.

Oh - and OUCH farmbiff!! No holy black in a made-for-black-powder round like this!!!????

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[Randy Bohannon]

I would only use black powder, the other stuff in a big case offers inferior performance with the potential of causing undue pressures . B/P is easier to clean up than hard smokeless fouling and better performance in the big B/P cartridges.

[NSB]

Attachment 279415http://www.texas-mac.com/
Contact Texas-Mac. He’s literally written “the book” on these specific guns. He’s about one of the nicest guys you’ll meet when it comes to getting some help. I think he’s a member on here. He’s helped me quite a bit when I bought several Win/Browning/Miroku guns. Complete disassembly of these guns SHOULD NOT be done unless you have a LOT of hours to dedicate in putting them back together. I’d suggest you start with smokeless powder and cast (I’d really suggest jacketed but they’re not obtainable at this time...no offense to black powder, but this gun’s a bear to take apart). Loading and shooting black powder is a dedicated learning process, not something that will offer immediate gratification without going through a lengthy learning curve. People who shoot black powder are a dedicated group whose main focus is using “old time” guns and loads. I used to do that, but I’m better now....just kidding

[indian joe]

Hello All,

I have read some of the threads on here before just coming across them in web searches, and now have a reason to post!

About me: I grew up hunting since age 8 with my family and have always used a 12ga slug gun until moving about 5 years ago. I've been reloading for my hunting rifle for a couple years and just decided to have it turned into a 30-284 because... Well I think it will be an awesome cartridge. So, I also like obscure-ish cartridges. I always wanted to be a cowboy growing up and I finally got myself a lever gun!!

I purchased this dandy yesterday at a local store... Winchester 1886 Deluxe 45-90. It's not an original, but it's beautiful and an interesting cartridge that I can't buy ammo for!!



So, I'm hoping to get some help in determining the easiest route to get started loading for it. There's so many nuances to loading straight wall old school cartridges that I didn't know about. It's a bit overwhelming, especially due to all components being scarce and this cartridge not being a saami.

So, what's the easiest route?
Smokeless and jacketed?
Smokeless and hard cast lead?
BP and hard cast?

My thoughts:
BP is much easier to source
If that rifle was mine (I have a Chiappa 86 in 45/70) I would load it like this : 7 grains of 4227 on the primer + then fill case with Blackpowder
+ normal compression + 45 thou HDPE wad over powder (I cut these from 10 litre drinking water containers) make em neat fit to bore size + softish cast boolit --I modified a LEE 459/405/HB to make a 335 grain and a 405 grain flat base with wider meplat - that load should get you 1600 to 1700FPS in a /90 with the 335 boolit -- this will get you all the wallop you need for most critters, lots of fun making smoke, uses your easy source of Blackpowder, it will shoot clean, accurate,

I have no idea how to break down a lever gun to adequately clean the innards after shooting
Dismantling an 1886 is the supreme test - easy enough once you have done it a number of times but quite daunting first time

I can't find any hard cast bullets in stock that aren't prelubed for smokeless
[I]Commercial goes hard cast because its easier and quicker boolit making NOT because they shoot better[/I]

The thought of using a filler for the extra space when using smokeless is scary
[I]Scares me too besides being a PITA [/I]

I can't find any 45-90 dies, but can apparently use 45-70 dies if set up correctly
should work except for full length resizing?

I definitely can't find any brass... I think that's the major Crux right now
we sposed to buy the lost and lonely brass first then go find a gun for it

Any help is appreciated and I'm excited to start learning here!

......

[HighUintas]

Thank you all for the very helpful replies!!

I have acquired some Lyman 45-70 dies, a Lee 45-90 FCD, and some Jamison 45-90 brass. For powder, I only have 4227 but may be able to trade some other powder for imr4198!

I also picked up Lyman 50th edition. I found the 48th for free online, but I had reading books on the computer. I have a question on the load data. For the 45-90 load data shown, I assume the smokeless powders suggested loads are ones that give a good enough case fill to not require a filler for extra space, correct? I can't imagine published load data that would require that.

For boolits, I have found Gallant 405gr hi Tek coated boolits in store and laser cast 405gr online. The laser cast are from what I can gather lubed for smokeless, right? But, I could melt off the lube and relube for BP, if desired. And from what I've read, the hi Tek Coates bullets can be used with BP also, but need to be lubed for it. They are both sized to .459. any thoughts on which I should go for? I think casting my own will come next year.

I'm thinking of trying both smokeless and BP or substitute, just to see how each goes. I'm worried that if I shoot BP and don't do a complete disassemble to clean, I'll end up with pitting in the action. Is that right? Also, I can find triple 7 FF locally, so with that supposedly being a little less corrosive than BP, I thought I may try that to start and then work up to BP. I'd go BP right off the bat for sure .. I know it's supposed to be used in this gun. But, the corrosive potential in this beautiful rifle scares me!

Thoughts?

[indian joe]

Thank you all for the very helpful replies!!

I have acquired some Lyman 45-70 dies, a Lee 45-90 FCD, and some Jamison 45-90 brass. For powder, I only have 4227 but may be able to trade some other powder for imr4198!

I also picked up Lyman 50th edition. I found the 48th for free online, but I had reading books on the computer. I have a question on the load data. For the 45-90 load data shown, I assume the smokeless powders suggested loads are ones that give a good enough case fill to not require a filler for extra space, correct? I can't imagine published load data that would require that.

For boolits, I have found Gallant 405gr hi Tek coated boolits in store and laser cast 405gr online. The laser cast are from what I can gather lubed for smokeless, right? But, I could melt off the lube and relube for BP, if desired. And from what I've read, the hi Tek Coates bullets can be used with BP also, but need to be lubed for it. They are both sized to .459. any thoughts on which I should go for? I think casting my own will come next year.

I'm thinking of trying both smokeless and BP or substitute, just to see how each goes. I'm worried that if I shoot BP and don't do a complete disassemble to clean, I'll end up with pitting in the action. Is that right? Also, I can find triple 7 FF locally, so with that supposedly being a little less corrosive than BP, I thought I may try that to start and then work up to BP. I'd go BP right off the bat for sure .. I know it's supposed to be used in this gun. But, the corrosive potential in this beautiful rifle scares me!

Thoughts?

Dont be so scared of blackpowder - seems to me you've been listening to keyboard warrior xpirts that never shot the stuff - Its an easy clean - with a 45/90 the chance of residue in the action is remote - keep it well oiled and even if a teensy bit gets in the innards - aint gonna rust it. I have half a dozen lever guns I shoot blackpowder in, never have pulled one down specifically to clean out blackpowder residue from the action - my 76 has been going four years blackpowder only - I clean the barrel after every shoot, wipe the outside with an oily cloth - done in five minutes - Its just as purty as your new 86. You mentioned substitutes ? do not use pyrodex its way more corrosive